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Nobel scientist discovers scientific basis of homeopathy

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Rosemary, Jul 8, 2010.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    MNC,

    I was really saddened to read your post #11.

    To put down a therapy with such condemnation, because it didn't work for you, is unfair to all the highly qualified Homeopaths who have successfully treated their patients & improved those patients chronic health problems & for which, those patients are extrememly grateful.

    It would have been far better to just state "that it didn't work for you, despite numerous different remedies you had been prescribed." I think it would be fair to express your disappointment & the fact that you had spent a lot of money which you could ill afford, & now regret spending. It might be even be fair to suggest "that you wished you had chosen to spend that money on more traditional treatment (or a different alternative therapy, if you are against mainstream medical treatment).

    My words are purely to defend Homeopathy & allied Alternative therapies, not to insult or "put down" a member's opinion. I do believe it's a patient right to express their disappointment in their chosen treatment (which does not work for them).

    I do not think it is fair to speak so harshly about a therapy (which didn't work for you).

    I am a person of open mind about many health matters & treatments. I am extremely open & receptive to anything positive & helpful in improving one's Mind, Body & Spirit - even if success is achieved by a therapy which I do not understand or believe in, myself. I try not to be prejudiced or unkind (in my words & actions), because I feel each person is responsible for their choices in life.

    So I hope I make my thoughts quite clear. I wish to defend Homeopathy & Alternative Therapies (in general). I, personally, think there is a time & place in illness treatment for some of these alternative therapies. I have a lot of admiration for these highly trained professionals (in their desire to treat illness without the side effects that more traditional prescription drugs have on some sensitive individuals).

    There would be many patients who have had great success with Homeopathy & have been pleased to share their success, and for them I feel great joy & happiness.

    Life is too short to allow anger & other negative emotions to cloud your mind, & judgement in future choices.

    Treatment is not just about the practitioner. It's about the patient/practitioner relationship too. We are all unique & while one therapy may not work for you, this does not mean it doesn't work. This means that it didn't work for you with that particular therapist, on that particular occasion. If you have tried hundreds of different Homeopathic remedies, then that suggests to me that this form of treatment is not for you.

    If Homeopathy worked for everyone, we would all be well & not have chronic illness. I suggest if you're interested in going down the alternative therapy path, you do some more research & ask around. You may find a different therapy that suits you better, is more in tune with your expectations, & is more successful in treating your particular symptoms.

    But the important thing is to keep searching & never give up Hope.

    A qualified medical professional is only as good as his training & experience, but a true Healer has the gift of life & an intuitive knowledge of the body's strengths & weakness. A true Healer (orthodox westerm medical doctor or alternative therapist) uses his gifts wisely & with genuine compassion for his patient.

    For all the different specialists & practitioners I've seen, I'd say each of them has their failings & successes.

    You just have to keep searching, being pro-active & keep an open mind.

    In the years to come, it may be a Nobel Prize winning scientist who cures you (or the Homeopathic "scammer" who moves into the house next door).
  2. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I can certainly understand your anger and passion if it didn't work for you, or even help you in a small way, especially if you saw a reknown specialist.

    But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I disagree that 'everyone' has tried it -- even in patient communities I bet the percentage is below 20%. Secondly, I disagree with your definition of what constitutes a 'real doctor' who do 'real medicine' at 'serious universities'. Again, with the exception of perhaps antibiotics and vaccines (which are btw based on the homeopathic principle of like cures like), the vast majority of drugs only temporarily suppress symptoms...they do NOTHING to address the causes of illness. It's common knowledge that one of the leading causes of death is due to properly prescribed drugs...hence the lawsuits, etc..

    Having said that, it's unlikely that homeopathy alone will cure a majority of illnesses, or even smaller complaints like headaches, etc.. But it does work for some, and was one of the things that helped Andrea Whittemore-Goad recover enough to even consider attending college. She crashed after getting the required vaccinations, and then homeopathy (and other treatments) were no longer able to help her.
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Excellent points Victoria. I wish I could write as well as you. There are definitely a lot of different modalities -- TCM, ayurvedic, allopathic, naturpathic, etc. -- out there besides homeopathy.
  5. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    And she had first class mainstream medical care, and general support, all her very privileged & pampered life. Never had to work, worry about money, etc. I will bet the average health, and life span, for any randomly selected group of people will rise substantially in those circumstances.

    We cannot criticise others for using anecdotal evidence against us, and then use it for our own purposes.

    Homeopathy has simply failed to deliver in proper clinical trials. There is no way around that. It has a much worse formal track record than CBT & GET for ME/CFS patients. And that is saying something.

    From the latest review of homeopathy:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20402610

    CONCLUSIONS: The findings of currently available Cochrane reviews of studies of homeopathy do not show that homeopathic medicines have effects beyond placebo.
  6. MNC

    MNC Senior Member

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    My loss of faith and courage? Please don't make me laugh and don't offend me or I will offend you back very easily. Is it clear? I will not reply to you by now anymore expecting your apologies.

    You sound like them. Word by word. Are you into the business of getting the last cent of the desperate people too?

    This is a fraud and many of those people shpuld be in jail. That simple.
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    Laugh? MNC.

    I hope you DO laugh, long & loud.

    Laughter is good therapy. If I have made you laugh, then I have generated a very positive effect with my post.

    (& why should I apologise for being open & broadminded?).
  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    The flaw in the studies...

    The point is, is that she, and many others, chose not to use "mainstream" medical care, but chose homeopathy instead. I agree there are those with wealth who have access to better health care options which makes it a lot easier for them to stay in good health, but it's also very apparent that riches, fame, wealth do not necessarily equal health and happiness. The list of celebrities who live a privileged life but have died young could fill an entire thread, and that's just in the last year alone.

    It was mentioned earlier that if homeopathy worked, then we'd all be using it. The reverse argument could also be made -- that if it were indeed completely worthless...a 'scam', then it would've been driven out of business decades ago. Instead it has grown in popularity.

    If by "proper" clinical trials, you mean the old standard double-blind placebo trails used for allopathic drugs, then of course any study or review of studies will show it's generally not effective -- for one sole and very critical reason: Homeopathic remedies are chosen based on each person's extremely specific and unusually unique (and sometimes bizarre) symptoms -- not for simply "headaches" or "sinus congestion", etc.

    50 people could go to a homeopath with their main complaint being a headache, but might not get the same remedy -- because their other (almost always overlooked) symptoms might be different...even slightly different (say they have headaches after they eat fatty foods, or another has headaches only in the morning, or has them with anxiety / without anxiety...on and on and on. A traditional homeopath will choose a remedy based on 25-50 overall symptoms...and choose the remedy that best matches that individual patient's symptoms. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach, hence a one-size-fits-all study won't work to show the effectiveness or lack thereof.

    Anyway, no one's forcing this, or any other type of approach on anyone. It's just another option that some may want to look into. Just as with any other type of medicine, some will find benefits, others won't. :Retro smile:
  9. Impish

    Impish Senior Member

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    "A traditional homeopath will choose a remedy based on 25-50 overall symptoms...and choose the remedy that best matches that individual patient's symptoms. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach, hence a one-size-fits-all study won't work to show the effectiveness or lack thereof. "

    That approach doesn't preclude comparing it to a placebo. You go through that process and then either give them the treatment or a placebo. What the treatment is doesn't really matter as long as it is homeopathic. Obviously the placebo doesn't matter either. After that you have either proved or disproved homeopathic treatments.
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    Well said, Dan :Retro smile:,
  11. MNC

    MNC Senior Member

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    Ok, before replying to your repeated insults now with even more cinicism I will report to the moderators. If you are not banned I will reply to you they way you deserve.
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    MNC,

    I actually meant my comment in the nicest possible way.

    I sincerely hope you take the opportunity to laugh & feel good.

    I've consider Laughter is the Best Medicine - I find it does wonders for my pain levels & I was hoping you would have a good laugh also.

    I genuinely did not understand why you thought I should apologise. I wrote a post which was open & broadminded. I feel that is a very healthy way to approach Living with Invisible Chronic Illness. If you choose to interpret my post in a negative way, there's not much I can do about it. It's your interpretation.

    I just feel so sorry for you that you have allowed your anger & disappointment with Homeopathy. to write such a strong & dismissive post on that particular alternative therapy. I was also confused as to why you chose to take hundreds of Homeopathic remedies (I believe these were your words), when you so clearly stated how unsuccessful this treatment was.

    Perhaps you might consider writing posts in the manner of constructive criticism instead of heightened anger (when talking about a therapy or treatment). Letting go of Anger has a profound positive effect on well-being. I am a true advocate in reducing negative emotions - they only do you harm & slow down your body's ability to deal with stress & a reduced immune system.

    Once again, I hope you have a good laugh. Try it. It's free. You'll feel much better.

    PS If you wish to know more about other Alternative Therapies, I can highly recommend Aromatherapy & Herbal Teas (& Tinctures). Aromatherapy has dual applications in that it is effective for emotional and physical problems. It has the power to reduce, increase or create a balancing effect.
    You might also benefit from Bach Flower Remedies or Schuessler (sp?) Tissure salts. Either of the last two I mentioned, do not require you to seek a fully trained therapist. You just need to have an awareness of your feelings & emotions OR be in tune with your body, and read a booklet on the subject.
  13. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Its very very important to be given the best homoeopathic med for you at the time.. and many homoeopaths may not be good at what they do. Its like doctors there are good ones which may not treat you quite right and there are good ones who are excellent.

    and getting the completely wrong homoeopathic medicine .. may give you new symptoms and make you worst. So it concerns me when you say you tried "hundreds".
  14. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    I cant talk about your country but over where i live in Australia its 4 yrs of studying full time to get a government recognised qualification in homoeopathy!! These people, the properly qualified ones, study too (not just doctors)
  15. Rosemary

    Rosemary Senior Member

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    Homeopathy: what does the "best" evidence tell us? by Ernst E. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20402610

    FYI :- Edzard Ernst is a Professor of Complementary medicine

    " Masterstroke to have a pharma shill as a professor of complementary medicine "

    http://whale.to/a/ernst_h.html
  16. filfla4

    filfla4 Senior Member

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    I just started homeopathic treatment six weeks ago and I have to say that I am quite pleased with the way it's going. I've been an ME/CFS sufferer for 16 years, was very ill for the first three....and now with pending menopause the whole thing has been exacerbated again. I was extremely sceptical about homeopathy but I was desperate and willing to try anything, especially since in the last six months I am now permanently on anti-inflammatories (celebrex), anti-depressants (cymbalta) and also sleep aids. I hate the fact that I'm taking so many meds.

    My homeopathist came highly recommended and spent 4hrs (in two sessions) getting to know me and my condition, plus a detailed medical history which I wrote up for her, since like most of us, my symptoms/condition has been so very complicated. Only after that did she feel she could recommend a homeopathic remedy for me. That is certainly more contact time than I've had with any other mainstream physician! I'm not expecting miracles and I believe that with my history she's treading very carefully. After four weeks on an extremely mild remedy, she then upped the dose very slightly. I have to say I am still not well, but I'm certainly managing to do very much more than I was doing six weeks ago. I have more energy but oddly enough it seems to me that symptoms that I haven't experienced in a while, which were certainly very present at the start of my illness have now returned: while the extreme pain in my limbs has improved slightly, bad neck pain and headaches plus tender glands have returned. She seems pleased with the return of these old symtoms - we are in contact every few days by email.

    She keeps emphasising that I need to be patient and that my improvement will be a very long slow process, however so far so good. The only downside is that she insisted that I could only do this if I cut out all caffeine from my diet - which in itself has probably helped me.

    I agree with what has been said: homeopathic remedies are not one size fits all. They have to be targeted for the specific patient, with specific conditions. Her questioning on how my body is reacting in different ways to different things is extremely rigorous. I am optimistic that my improvement will continue and I will be able to reduce some of the meds.
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    filfla4,

    Your improvement, although minimal at the present time, sounds very positive.

    I only touched on the subject of Homeopathy very briefly when I was studying Herbal Medicine (I have a basic Certificate in Herbal Medicine & am qualified in Aromatherapy & Relaxation Massage).

    With some Alternative Therapies, depending on the health problems, there may be an exacerbation of some symptoms initially, so I would keep an open mind (for the time being) & interpret the emergence of old symptoms as a good sign. I like the sound of your Homeopath. She obviously is listening very carefully & taking a full history before deciding which rememdies to prescribe.

    Did she say which particular symptoms she was starting to treat? Or did she suggest that she was starting with supporting your immune system first? If you have multiple symptoms & varying degrees of severity, she might have chosen to start with just one overall aspect of your long term illness.

    Perhaps, she might also be looking at your character profile as well.

    When I was mixing a massage oil for a particular client (many, many years ago before my spinal condition made bending over a massge table too painful), I would often add an uplifting essentail oil in the mix, to give a basic overall feeling of calm & wellbeing. Massage clients always want to feel good, emotionally & spiritually, after a treatment. It's not just about physical ailments.

    I wish you improved health in the near future.

    PS I suggest you doublecheck with your Dr first before discontinuing any presciption meds in the future - some have withdrawal symptoms if you stop them suddenly - as I found out when I had a strong reaction after finishing the prescription pain meds 6 weeks after my lumbar disc surgery. I should have reduced them step by step over a period of a week or so, instead of stopping the daily dose "Cold Turkey".
  18. Rosemary

    Rosemary Senior Member

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    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/339/dec15_1/b5432

    Re: Homeopathy: Sensitization to a Medical Heresy ? 11 July 2010

    Rapid Response to journal:
    by Dr Viera Scheibner PhD,
    Scientist (retired)/Author
    Blackheath NSW Australia

    Re Medical science for the 21st century or medical heresy?

    Many of those who are ignorant, intolerant, and flat thinkers may also have a lack of wisdom to judge and reject homeopathy, something they have obviously not studied, otherwise they would come to the same conclusion as Dr Constantin Hering, the American orthodox medical doctor who set out to debunk homeopathy; he did the right thing and studied it first and became a famous homeopath.

    It is ironic that just when the BMA decided to reject homeopathy, and many people like Edzar Ernst and Steven Dawkins are conducting what looks like a concentrated attack against homeopathy, more and more research information surfaces which confirms its validity.

    Montagnier et al. (2009. Electromagnetic signals are produced by aegueous nanostructures derived from bacterial DNA sequences. Interdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci) wrote that when investigating filtrates of bacteria it was also discovered that if they were diluted and agitated in a specific way, they emitted reproducible low-frequency electromagnetic waves referred to as electromagnetic signals (EMS). They suggested that this process resulted in creation of new tiny structures by an interaction between the original biological material and water it is mixed with [it is well-known that water is a powerful polymer]; and when these �nanostructures� are of a certain size, they are able to generate measurable EMS. DNA fragments from most pathogenic bacteria were able to generate EMS.

    The discovery that biological materials can demonstrate electromagnetic activity at high dilutions is an exciting step towards understanding how homeopathic medicines at similar dilutions can have an effect on the body.

    It is the succussion which allows homeopathic medicines to be clinically active; Montagnier and his team found that the diluted filtrates only generate EMS if they had been agitated using the Vortex apparatus during their preparations.

    One of many most interesting finding is that formaldehyde damages only the surface of the bacteria but not the internal DNA. That would explain the asymptotic factor which makes the inactivation of bacteria and the other microorganisms in vaccines incomplete and reversible, making such vaccines infectious (Gerber et al. 1961. Inactivation of vacuolating virus SV40 by formaldehyde. Proc Soc Exp Biol & Med; 108: 205-209 and Fenner 1962. The reactivation of animal viruses. BMJ; July 21: 135-142).

    It is not without interest that similar formaldehyde treatment used to detoxify toxins is also incomplete and reversible (Samor and Siber 1992. Effect of pertussis toxin on susceptibility of infant rats to Haemophilus influenza Type b. J Infect Dis; 165: 945-948.

    Homeopathic doctors have known much of the above ever since the principle was empirically discovered, confirmed and documented by Dr Hahnemann more than 200 years ago.

    Because of the high individual sensitivity of its remedies, homeopathy centers on the patients� individuality and any attempts at testing it with some sledge hammer methods of orthodox medicine are futile and unscientific. Homeopathy does not herd patients, it investigates their minutest idiosyncrasies and designs a specific remedy for every individual. That is also the reason behind the extraordinary safety of homeopathic medicines. Homeopathy treats an individual not a disease. Consequently, while orthodoxy uses the same medications for a great number of patients, homeopathy does not. That, inter alia, makes it the medicine of the twenty first century.

    Competing interests: None declared
  19. filfla4

    filfla4 Senior Member

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    Victoria,

    Thanks for your insight. I think she is trying to boost my immune system and is basing this on my character profile. You're right, I won't stop the meds quickly. I learnt the horrid 'cold turkey' lesson many moons ago in the first few years of this illness. I stopped my anti-d's too quickly and it pulled the bottom out of my world. An understanding partner helped me pull through that one. I managed without anti'd's for several years and have only started them again (at my own request) a few years ago. Most recently I switched to Cymbalta, for the added pain relief.

    I am not expecting a cure from the homeopathy but perhaps it can give me a better quality of life. I'm willing to try.
  20. willow

    willow Senior Member

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    Filfla4,
    Yes I'm using homeopathy, have been for over a year and for the last 7 weeks I've been experiencing symptoms I had during a 3 year infectcious event (don't know how else to express it) that happened 20-23 years ago. Prior to this I had various improvements but during the worst of the recurrent infectcious symptoms I've recovered brain function I lost 6 years ago. I'm extremely releived and grateful as brain symtoms are my worst ones, they isolate me and usually keep me homebound. Plus I'd started wondering if the brain damage was permanent.

    I've been ill since I was a child, around 35 years ago so this might be a long slow road. I also know that if I manage to recover to 50% of my potential I'll still have a wealth of opportunity and an awfie lot more joy and fun.... And ease. Those 11 days when I could be with a few people were so, so easy, my brain worked with much, much less effort, like it just happened. Words came out my mouth and i could understand other people too. Before the vibrations from my own voice were often indescribably painful... Other people's were beyond that.

    My practitioner started by focussing on immune function and supporting organs of elimination. We've had a few disagreements which we've weathered, and I think it was a good choice to go with what felt right for me. Not doing that is something I've done too much of in the past!!

    It's the only practitioner based modality that has had any benefits for me.... But I think I said that earlier ;)

    Good Luck with it!

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