Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

NO/ONOO- A New Paradigm of Human Disease: Martin Pall website

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ahmo, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,321
    Likes:
    6,444
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    These last weeks my quest has been to understand NO and ammonia. I searched for a website for Martin Pall several times, but found nothing. Now @Gondwanaland linked me to an article about NO/ONOO- on the Inspire website. (This site puts a dark shield over the content unless you've joined. But I was able to copy the content and paste into a document, got the whole page fine....Having joined and then unjoined, I'm no longer able to access the page.:meh:
    https://www.inspire.com/martiz/journal/first-steps-phases-to-correct-methylation-including-diet/ )

    From that site I followed a link to a Yahoo NO/ONOO- forum, to which Pall, at least historically, responds. And from there I found his website.
    I found the Yahoo group to be pretty inactive, with most of the posts of the past year concerning MCS and EMFs. However, it exists as a forum for asking questions. And in the File section there are a number of files and links. The forum and website are named The Tenth Paradigm.

    I've also gotten much closer to understanding Pall's work from his 2 hour video from March 2014. The last 20" lists his suggested supplements, which are also covered on his site. I've gotten good symptom relief following his suggestions to add ALCAR, AdB12, reseveratrol, watermelon, switch my E succinate to Gamma E.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6A7r1gemjto


     
    SueJohnPat, jepps, picante and 4 others like this.
  2. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    After Nan posted this yesterday on the Alternatives to Arginine thread, I went looking for Maes, whose first name is Michael, and found this:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964747/

    which I've tabbed to read later today, :rolleyes:.
     
    Gondwanaland, ahmo and jepps like this.
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    I found I link of it with thiols:
    Untitled-1.jpg
    Source
     
    picante and ahmo like this.
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,285
    Likes:
    33,808
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    The Tenth Paradigm and "no, oh no" (that is the "preferred" pronunciation) have been discussed on Phoenix Rising many times. I wrote a commentary for Marty on his book back when it came out. I used to debate with Marty online, along with Rich van Konyenburg. I have a lot of time for his models. It was Marty who encouraged me to go back to uni to finish my biochem degree.

    His explanation of electromagnetic sensitivity is very very interesting, which is why I think it has been the main focus for debate recently. The response to this is due to interference, if I recall correctly, with voltage gated calcium channels.
     
    melamine, Sherpa, Helen and 3 others like this.
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    mB12 and magnesium helped me a lot with that, but I am still intolerant to wi-fi
     
  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    Good heavens, izzy, I don't know how you can understand this stuff. :wide-eyed: That seems to be an article on nitric oxide sensors!

    So the ONOO reacts with CO2 and thiols. I wonder what that reaction produces. Presumably that's eNOS in the image, since it's in contact with the endothelium.

    Nice image! Can anyone comment on the implications? I'm a linguist, not a biologist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
    August59 likes this.
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,321
    Likes:
    6,444
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @alex3619 Maybe you can clear up something for me. Until I watched Marty Pall's 2 hr vid, I thought I'd been dealing with ammonia problems. I have a fairly discreet set of symptoms that respond favorably to ammonia-reducing supps. I'm now wondering if all along I've been actually coping with peroxy symptoms. I've not been too successful in understanding the relationship between ammonia and peroxynitrite, though someone did post an answer a few days ago. (Didn't write it down, so it's gone now) Does ammonia reduce to peroxy? Do the two essentially become indistinguishable?

    During the past 2 months I've had 3 distinct episodes. One was quite clearly physical stress, PEM. By resting and implementing some of Pall's suggested supps, I avoided a crash. The other 2 episodes involve B vitamins. First B2, which I added to my otherwise very low dose B complex, hoping this would let me eat green veggies.100mg for 1-2 days, then 50mg for another day. It was great to eat some lettuce, but 2 days later I felt like I was drowning in "ammonia" and it took many days to eliminate.

    Most recently I was needing a lot of ammonia-reducing supps, antioxidants. It occurred to me that maybe my P5P was contributing. I quit my 33mg dose for 2 days, then reduced it to 1/2, and now, again, I've stopped having the symptoms, and am no longer in high need for all the supps.

    My diet is low thiol, only small amounts of meat. When I used sulfate strips I always tested next to lowest, regardless of how I was feeling. Maybe that supports the idea that it's actually a peroxynitrite problem, rather than an ammonia problem???

    My current question is whether it's possible that since I've been using malic acid as my 'ammonia' fix, something has shifted so that now I need less P5P?? When I began P5P a couple years ago I went up to 3 caps for awhile, and didn't have any problem as best as I can recall. I've also followed someone's advice and upped my molybdenum, 3 weeks ago going from 300 to 1200mcg. so maybe this is playing a role.

    I'm very happy using a range of Pall's suggestions. When I was in an acute state, I self-tested + for and used more...like ADB12. Now that my system has calmed down, I need less: no extra resveratrol, ubiquinol, butyrate; only very small amounts of ALCAR, little malic acid, much fewer carrots. Also my mast cell symptoms have quietened.

    Can you offer a complete theory of everything for me??:nerd:;) thx.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
    picante likes this.
  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,285
    Likes:
    33,808
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I don't have a complete theory of everything ... wish I did. I have also not been following Marty's recent work closely. Sorry. I was into this about ten years ago.

    I would do a little digging to find answers but I am still struggling with my laptop, as my main computer is still away getting repaired. I might get it back tomorrow, or not. I am hoping I will. I have had almost two months of computer problems now, and its meant I cannot investigate all the things I want to.

    Even if Marty is wrong about the Tenth Paradigm, something that advancing science will tell us, he is still right about the peroxynitrite being a big issue. Its very likely he is either right or partly right though. That is the big thing that models are prey to - a model is only as right as the things it takes into account, and I am fairly sure that ME and related disorders have a few surprises we have not uncovered yet.
     
    August59 and Hanna like this.
  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    ahmo likes this.
  11. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    Ditto ditto for me!

    I actually swing between 3 different beliefs when my brain winds up in Dorothy's poppy field: 1) it's ammonia, 2) it's sulfites not converting to sulfates, 3) it's peroxynitrite.

    A unified field theory of these three processes might help me, too, if I can understand it. My brain worked much better before I started methylation. And I could eat two eggs a day.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    @ahmo are you trying to raise or lower NO?
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    I know we need to lower ONOO-, but what about NO?
    This finally is starting to make sense to me. Look at peroxynitrite in the bottom left, lowering ammonia you consequently lower ONOO- as well [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    picante and ahmo like this.
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,321
    Likes:
    6,444
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @alex3619 I just thought you might be familiar with the relationship of ammonia and peroxy. I'm very taken with Pall's theory, it makes more sense than most things I've seen as a broad explanation for the mechanism. At least what's keeping us stuck. Really, I jumped at the chance to ask you. I'm very impressed with your close relationship with him and the theoretical. ;)

    @picante :):hug:
    So this could mean that when my liver's overloaded, I'm producing ammonia. which is why I'm doing coffee enemas.
    As for sulfites to sulfates, I' don't know where I'd be getting sulfites. And my current decrease in symptoms reinforces that it's not sulfites for me, unless...something about those B vitamins produced sulfites???

    @Gondwanaland
    :thumbsup::nerd:
    So does that mean raising ONOO raises ammonia? I don't know about whether my NO is hi or low, only that I'm trying to reduce peroxy. I believe what Pall is saying is that if peroxy is lowered, NO becomes normalized...:confused:

    Now I see ammonia on the chart, I think maybe I can stare at this long enough to make some sense of it. I think I'm at the point where the answer to my original question no longer matters. I have strategies that are working. Last night I didn't need any footbath, which means my body didn't need K+, glycine, malic acid, Lithium, vit C...something stopped the ammonia/peroxy overload. Maybe further days away from the P5P? Today's the 3rd day in a row I've been feeling great, even after having initiated anti-fungals. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
    picante and Gondwanaland like this.
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,321
    Likes:
    6,444
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    OK, a few quotes from Pall's website:
     
  16. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    :D
    Staring at that diagram, I see no arrow going from ONOO to ammonia.
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    760
    Likes:
    864
    Helena, MT USA
    :balloons:
    Still staring at the diagram: If you can increase conversion of homocysteine to methionine, it will decrease ammonia. So are you taking something that helps with the conversion? That's what I wonder.
     
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    My Hcy is at its best right now (6.8), therefore I haven't had ammonia issues lately :thumbsup:
    I attribute it to stopping the B vits and balancing minerals. Just wonder what is going to happen when I start vitamins again :nervous:
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes:
    3,407
    Can you see how the urea cycle feeds ONOO-? I think excess serotonin does too ( @nandixon )
     
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,285
    Likes:
    33,808
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I hope to comment after I get my real computer back. There is no way ammonia can directly give rise to ONOO, but there are so many potential interacting pathways where it might contribute to a rise that I didn't want to comment without investigating. You can see hints of that on the above diagram, but I wanted to see more detail before commenting.

    For what its worth, a couple of years back it looked like the NO/ONOO model and methylation might merge. I don't know what is happening in that direction at the moment.
     
    ahmo likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page