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NICE guideline on ME/CFS: Stakeholder consultation submissions (July 2017)

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
The illness aversion therapy that is called CBT to which ME patients are subjected whether they have a diagnosed mental health problem or not should NOT be in the NICE guidelines.

It's not an illness aversion therapy because it would have to involve intentionally causing discomfort or pain while the patient is engaging in pathological behaviour.

It could be described as a form of identity conversion therapy because the goal is to change the patient's identity from a person viewing themselves as sick and disabled to a person that views themselves as healthy and functional.

PS: and apparently the PACE authors are content with changing patient views even when it doesn't translate into higher activity levels.
 
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charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
This is the letter to accompany the MEA petition that has been sent to Sir Andrew Dilllon, Chief Executive at NICE.

It also contains some comments from Dr William Weir on the harmful effects of GET.

The ME Association

7 Apollo Office Court

Radclive Road

Gawcott

Buckingham

MK18 4DF

25 July 2017

Dear Sir Andrew

The NICE guideline for CFS/ME is not fit for purpose and needs a complete revision

I assume you are aware that NICE has been undertaking a stakeholder consultation process in relation to the 2007 NICE guideline (CG53) on ME/CFS.

This follows on from a decision by an expert group that was appointed by NICE to review all the new and relevant research evidence on ME/CFS.

The ME Association (MEA) is disappointed and somewhat surprised to learn that the expert group has concluded that there is no need to review or update the guideline on ME/CFS.

We have consistently taken the position that key parts of the 2007 NICE guideline are unfit for purpose. For example, the use of cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) and graded exercise therapy (GET) for everyone with mild or moderate ME/CFS is not acceptable to the patient community and the undue emphasis placed on these two approaches in the guideline implies to many doctors that there is very little else that can be done to help.

We believed that a significant number of people with ME/CFS would support the MEA in calling for a proper review of the guideline, so we decided to create an online petition to allow people to demonstrate their support and to leave comments relating to their experience of clinical care under the guideline, or their own ideas about how the guideline should be revised.

The petition opened on the same day as the stakeholder consultation process began, Monday 10 July, and it closed on Monday 24 July at 9am. In the same period as that allowed for stakeholders to submit their comments to NICE, the petition was signed by 15,180 people. I attach the petition to this email – although you may also view it online. At the same time as the petition, we asked people who visit our website to complete a straw poll which asked, ‘Do you think the NICE guideline for CFS/ME is working for you?’. We began it on Tuesday 11 July and the public response can be seen on the homepage of our website but I have also taken a snapshot:

Current MEA website poll voting figures instead here:


  • Do you think the NICE guideline for CFS/ME is working for you?
    • Yes - I think it is (0%, 3 Votes)

    • Yes - but it could be better (0%, 3 Votes)

    • No - I think it needs a minor review (1%, 8 Votes)

    • No - I think it needs a major review(94%, 648 Votes)

    • I am not sure (1%, 5 Votes)

    • What's the NICE guideline? (3%, 19 Votes)


      Total Voters: 686

My understanding is that with over 15,000 signatures – the total after only two weeks – the MEA petition represents the biggest expression of no confidence in a NICE guideline ever recorded.

The ME/CFS patient community have made their views very clear. NICE must acknowledge that they have produced a guideline that is not meeting the needs of the people it is designed to help.

We also have a major cause for concern about the way in which NICE gathers and reviews what it regards as evidence in relation to acceptability, efficacy and safety of interventions used in ME/CFS.

This relates to the way in which evidence from clinicians, and especially from patients, is not being actively sought by NICE and appears to be almost completely ignored when it is submitted by patient representative organisations such as our own.

In 2002, the Independent Working Group on ME/CFS in their report to the Chief Medical Officer gave equal weight to research, clinical and patient evidence – and we believe this practice should be applied to the creation and review of the NICE guideline.

When evidence from clinical trials is either weak or inconsistent and there are significant differences between patient reports and clinical trial evidence – it is even more important to listen to what patients who use specialist clinics, for example, are telling you about the effectiveness and safety of the NICE endorsed recommendations.

There are many clinicians involved with the care of people with ME/CFS who are not asked to be involved in the guideline review process. However, they do have important evidence to contribute.

My colleague Dr William Weir – a well-respected specialist in infectious diseases with a longstanding interest in ME/CFS – has made the following comments:

“I think that the single most damaging misconception perpetrated on ME patients is the idea that deconditioning is the problem and that exercise is the antidote.

“I have seen many people now, well-motivated, who have made themselves much worse with exercise, often on the advice of their GPs who have been gullible enough to swallow the deconditioning hypothesis.

“I think this needs to be properly emphasised with NICE, otherwise their advice concerning graded exercise will always be assumed to be "exercise to fitness" which is always destructive.

“Sadly, the people who get worse with exercise, because they exceed their anaerobic threshold on multiple occasions with further reduction of the latter, are then assumed to be imagining their disability and treated accordingly. It would be farcical if it wasn't so serious.”

Dr Weir has asked if his comments might be added to the evidence that has already been submitted by the ME Association for the consultation.

Finally, could I draw your attention to the submission from the Countess of Mar and members of the Forward ME Group of charities:

http://www.forward-me.org.uk/Reports/10 year surveillance (2017).pdf

This response focusses on the important issues of ethics and informed consent.

The NICE guideline was published in 2007 and it has not been changed in 10 years despite advances in our knowledge-base and its testing on many thousands of people with ME/CFS.

In our opinion, it is fundamentally failing to serve the need of patients and we call on you to help us work with NICE to achieve something demonstrably better.

I would welcome the opportunity to come and discuss the situation outlined by the petition and in our submission to NICE with you at your earliest opportunity.

In the meantime, I look forward to hearing your response to the petition so that I might pass your words on to our supporters.

Yours sincerely,

Dr Charles Shepherd

Hon Medical Adviser, ME Association. 4

Attachments in accompanying email to your PA:

  1. 1. The ME Association petition: The NICE guideline for CFS/ME is not fit for purpose and needs a complete revision - in two parts: a. All those who signed the petition
  2. b. All the comments that were made


2. The ME Association stakeholder submission to the NICE guideline consultation process



Copies of this letter and attachments are being sent to:

Countess of Mar - House of Lords and Chair of the Forward-ME Group

Professor Mark Baker – Centre for Guidelines Director, NICE

Dame Sally Davies - Chief Medical Officer for England at the Department of Health

Dr Martin McShane - Director of Long Term Conditions at NHS England
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Hi @charles shepherd might I suggest editing copy/pasting all the links into the first post?

This will make them easy to find and allow all our (inevitable) commenting to "not get in the way" of the actual statements.


Excellent suggestion!

I have just done so in the first post and will continue to update the list if/when any other submissions are placed in the public domain

Current list - updated 26th July

Action for ME
https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news/nice-guidelines-on-cfs/m.e.-must-be-reviewed/

Forward ME Group of ME/CFS charities
http://www.forward-me.org.uk/Reports/10 year surveillance (2017).pdf

Hope 4 ME & Fibro NI
http://hope4mefibro.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Hope-4-ME-Fibro-NI-comments-form-2.pdf

Invest in ME:
http://www.investinme.org/IIMER-Newslet-17-07-04.shtml

ME Action
http://www.meaction.net/2017/07/23/nice-2017-response/

ME Association submission
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...-a-nice-guideline-ever-recorded-26-july-2017/

ME letter (pdf) to Sir Andrew Dillon, Chief Executive at NICE, containing the 15,000 signature petition
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/wp-...tion-Letter-to-Sir-Andrew-Dillon-24.07.17.pdf

CS
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
It would be very interesting to read submissions from the psycho-social side. I wonder will these be published anywhere?

(I've taken the liberty of dropping the "bio" part, because I see no biological/biomedical/biochemical aspect to anything they do... )

My understanding is that NICE will publish ALL of the stakeholder submissions in due course - which will make for a very interesting bedtime read!

I suspect that most (probably all) of the organisations and NHS clinical services who are supporting the decision to not update/review the NICE guideline on ME/CFS will NOT be placing their submissions in the public domain

So much for transparency in public life….

We are still waiting for a proper reply to our request for membership details of the expert group. The FoI request also remains unanswered by NICE

CS
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
My colleague Dr William Weir – a well-respected specialist in infectious diseases with a longstanding interest in ME/CFS – has made the following comments:

“I think that the single most damaging misconception perpetrated on ME patients is the idea that deconditioning is the problem and that exercise is the antidote.

“I have seen many people now, well-motivated, who have made themselves much worse with exercise, often on the advice of their GPs who have been gullible enough to swallow the deconditioning hypothesis.

I think this needs to be properly emphasised with NICE, otherwise their advice concerning graded exercise will always be assumed to be "exercise to fitness" which is always destructive.

“Sadly, the people who get worse with exercise, because they exceed their anaerobic threshold on multiple occasions with further reduction of the latter, are then assumed to be imagining their disability and treated accordingly. It would be farcical if it wasn't so serious.”

This is what NICE and the NHS fail to acknowledge and 'hide' from patients, medical professionals and the general public. They need to come clean and openly admit that this is the 'theory' that they support and what their 'treatments' are based on.


eta: then maybe a few papers to disprove the theory with objective research findings might put an end to it(?)
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
@charles shepherd, thank you very much for all your hard work on this excellent submission and letter.

I have just been browsing through some of the comments made by people who signed the petition. What is so striking is the sheer volume of comments from people whose lives have been ruined by GET.

I really hope the recipients of the petition take the time to read these comments. No more can they say that it's a tiny minority of activists campaigning against PACE and GET. The evidence is there.

I think the people advising NICE and making decisions on our lives should be obliged to read every word of every submission from the patient charities and every word of the comments on the petition - all 330 pages of them.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,476
Location
UK
@charles shepherd, thank you very much for all your hard work on this excellent submission and letter.

I have just been browsing through some of the comments made by people who signed the petition. What is so striking is the sheer volume of comments from people whose lives have been ruined by GET.

I really hope the recipients of the petition take the time to read these comments. No more can they say that it's a tiny minority of activists campaigning against PACE and GET. The evidence is there.

I think the people advising NICE and making decisions on our lives should be obliged to read every word of every submission from the patient charities and every word of the comments on the petition - all 330 pages of them.

If NICE continue to ignore the damage inflicted on patients, and refuse to either warn of the potential dangers of GET, including when it is inflicted by a so-called trained and approved 'expert', or remove the GET recommendation entirely, are there now potential legal repercussions that could deem them liable for the harm they are promoting?

Do we have an appropriately-trained lawyer in the house?

Surely they can now be deemed 'guilty' of wilful ignorance..................or worse........... as they cannot deny having been made aware of the damage they are promoting on a very sick and vulnerable patient population by deliberately misleading the medical staff of this country?
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
@charles shepherd, thank you very much for all your hard work on this excellent submission and letter.

I have just been browsing through some of the comments made by people who signed the petition. What is so striking is the sheer volume of comments from people whose lives have been ruined by GET.

I really hope the recipients of the petition take the time to read these comments. No more can they say that it's a tiny minority of activists campaigning against PACE and GET. The evidence is there.

I think the people advising NICE and making decisions on our lives should be obliged to read every word of every submission from the patient charities and every word of the comments on the petition - all 330 pages of them.

Thanks

As you may have seen, a copy of the letter to Sir Andrew Dillon + the MEA petition + the accompanying comments has also been sent to Professor Mark Baker at NICE, Dame Sally Davies - the CMO for England at DoH, and to NHS England

We await their replies with interest!

CS
 

Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK