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NICE : "Do not do" recommendations for (not) treating ME/CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Valentijn, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Empiricism is a discredited 19th century school of scientific philosophy. That's its formal name. It later combined to form Verificationism, yet another discredited philosophy of science from circa 1920.

    Empiricism and empirical are not the same.

    Apparently Nassim Taleb’s Antifragile directly deals with empiricism in modern medical research and practice, but I have yet to read it. Empiricism is anti-science. Testing is not important, data gathering is what matters. So much bad science is based more on empiricism than critical rationalism (the current scientific philosophy which I think needs an update). Its why there is so much debate on climate science - some of it is too empirical and not testable, or at least some put forward explanations along those lines.

    I am putting together a reading list.

    In the context of empiricism, and verificationism, the psychiatrists are doing a great job with respect to M.E. and CFS. With respect to critical rationalism, and pan-critical rationalism, they are doing nonscience i.e. pseudoscience. Empiricism and verificationism were discredited for good reasons (look up the history of scientific philosophy) but many medical researchers are still stuck in the 1920s and even 19th century scientific processes. Critical rationalism also has empirical roots, but it emphasizes that hypotheses must be testable, and that contrary data can disprove an hypothesis.

    There IS NO reality check in empiricism, at least not usually. The struggle to reconcile it to the real world led to critical rationalism. The struggle to reconcile critical rationalism with messy and ill-defined reality, and untestable aspects of reality, led to pancritical rationalism.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
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  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    PS Some reading relating to empiricism:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empiricism

    My bolding


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidsh...t-causation-the-retro-humility-of-empiricism/

    Why Causation Is (Often) Not Causation - The Retro Humility Of Empiricism

    (I may add others if they are not too philosophical.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

    Please note that this discussion of scientism is really about an abuse of the scientific method.

    It might help if I point out that Verificationism was a key tennet of Logical Positivism, also known as Logical Empiricism, from circa 1920s till sometime in the 60s.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
    SOC likes this.
  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Sorry then, I wasn't aware of that.
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Its OK, I used the term in a misleading fashion. There are alternative meanings of Empiricism that are not based on philosophy of science schools of thought, and in particular in the way the word is used in modern language. It is very confusing, which is why I elaborated on what I meant. I should perhaps have more consistently said "Empiricism" rather than "empiricism" indicating a formal name.
  5. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    This is the tactic that ought to be used by any doctor who cares about helping patients, which should be all doctors. Only arrogant SOBs who shouldn't be in the business of caring for sick people would put a diagnosis in a patient's record that would require all doctors treating the patient to ignore clear symptoms rather than investigate and treat.
    natasa778, Valentijn and NK17 like this.
  6. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    I wish doctors were given more freedom. In the uk the only dr we have is NICE. To call people who just do exactly what a governing body tell them to do is not being drs. They don't have their own brain to try out alternative treatments or think outside of the box with test. All I've had is cbt and ged and I'm getting more physio which has already been pushed to another date. I suspect that all they will do is give me a sheet of exercises like they did when I was initially ill. It hasn't worked and I suspect soon that I won't have any medical intervention other then a fifteen minute gp appointment if I have an infection or need pain relief.

    I feel failed by NICE that is supposedly the best in the world. I would seriously rather they left the medical condition box blank and put unknown because they don't care about cfs. If it was unknown at least I wouldn't be treated as bad. The worst thing is my symptoms don't correlate with the CFS that is internationally recognised. Everyday I'm on this forum is everyday i realise that I don't even fit in with cfs community when it comes to common physiological symptoms. It's very confusing. All I want is effective treatment at the end of the day.
    Valentijn likes this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I know of someone who was failed by NICE guidelines and UK medical practice, paid for private testing and treatment, researched their doctors, got a completely new diagnosis, and is now awaiting treatment.
    DeGenesis and Valentijn like this.

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