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niacin questions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    Does niacin stop methylation dead in its tracks?

    Or does it just stop the symptoms of overmethylation?

    How much niacin should I take the first time? (I seem to be very sensitive to B12...)

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Niacin mops up methyl groups. If you take a too high dose of methyl-B12 / methyl-folate and feel too edgy, you can use some niacin to ease the discomfort and lower the anxiety.

    Dr. Ben Lynch suggests taking 50mg every few hours until the symptoms are gone.

    cheers
     
    boo85 likes this.
  3. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    FWIW, niacin is helping me a LOT with sleep. It activates GABA receptors. I wish I had known about it years ago. I take it after dinner (500 mg.), then 250 mg. before bed and 250 more in the middle of the night. I also take l-theanine and 5-htp and calcium and magnesium (and am down to 0.5 mg. lorazepam (was at 1 mg.) in the middle of the night which I will be stopping soon, thanks to the niacin).

    I know this isn't answering your question but it might be useful information anyways. I think it's pretty benign unless taken in really high doses. I'd try taking 100 mg., see how you do and repeat as needed.

    Mary
     
  4. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    @PeterPositive Thanks for your input, Peter.

    So if I take niacin when I'm feeling to anxious on B12 (which is very much the case) will is stop methylation completely? Will it stop my body from using B12 altogether? Or will it only mop up the excess B12 that is causing anxiety while making use of the rest?

    I'm just wondering whether taking niacin when I'm taking B12 would stop the B12 from healing, as in, cancel it out...


    @Mary Thanks Mary. Sharing your experience really helped me. I have trouble with depression lately and have all my life. It's been particularly bad this year, I suspect because of low B12, but also generally speaking, I've kind of had a low mood all my life and find it hard to be 'happy' like other people do.

    So if niacin wakes up the GABA receptors for me, that would be fantastic. I haven't ever tried niacin on its own before so it's worth a shot.
     
  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    No, it's not an on/off switch.
    Also "overmethylation" is a misnomer, imho. There is no such thing as overmethylation unless you can show on a lab that you are producing excess of GSH and SAMe. Probably the only cases of overmethylation are those where homocysteine levels are too low that could cause some concerns.

    If you take a methylfolate tablet and get very anxious you're simply having methyl-folate side effects, but it is highly unlikely that, because of that, your methylation cycle is now running too fast.

    I have had anxiety, jittery feeling etc... from both methyl-folate and methyl-B12 when my methylation was in a very poor state and the labs showed it was still running very very slow. I think we should find a different name for those symptoms.

    Moderate doses of vitamin B3 can help with the anxiety etc..., while prolonged periods of B3 at high dose (> 500mg) will likely slow your methylation down.

    Dr. Ben Lynch typically suggests to take niacin in 50mg doses when needed. (e.g. 2-3 times a day)
    More in general, B3 is also important for the folate cycle and to protect glutathione so I think a daily dose of ~50mg is helpful.

    If you are currently seeing a doctor it would be best to ask him/her so that he can adjust the dosage for your specific situation.

    cheers
     
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  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    boo85 - I used to be depressed a lot and several things have helped me: (1) dealing with childhood trauma using EMDR (google it, it's an extremely effective form of therapy which can work quickly), (2) a 12-step program gave me very effective tools for dealing with issues, (3) "faster eft" - see youtube videos, and (4) 5-htp (100 mg. before bed). I can't tolerate prescription ADs and think in general they cause more harm than good - there are natural ways to help your mood, including lots of omega 3s, and of course getting your B12 levels up as you mention. It's ironic - even though my live is now severely limited due to CFS, my mood is much improved than before.

    Best wishes,

    Mary
     
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  7. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    @PeterPositive

    Thanks Peter. I understand a bit better now.

    I've bought a bottle of B3 (niacin) but haven't taken any yet. I'll see if I can take 50mg at first.

    @Mary

    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    I'm also careful about omega 3s and keeping my omega 3 and 6 ratios in check. The Western diet contains way too many seed oils (omega 6) the ratio gets out of balance which can lead to anger and depression if it's not balanced.
     
  8. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Lily

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    Yesterday was my first day of supplementing with b3 Niacin (The one with flush, not niacinamide).

    I'm taking it for anxiety/depression and I've also read that it is an important vitamin for Glutathione production and preservation. Quote from Rich "...B2 and niacin. These are both needed for the glutathione reductase reaction, which recycles oxidized glutathione back to reduced glutathione"

    The product is called GNC NIACIN B3 250 mg. I expected a flush or a warm sensation/tingling over my body with the first dose. I have read a flush is a good way to ensure that the Niacin is working.

    It's day 2 now and I have taken up to 4000 mg of Niacin and haven't experienced any flush or side-effects whatsoever.

    Does this mean my body is ultra strong (I also tolerate high doses of NAC e.g 1800 mg and ALA 600-1200 mg) or that I am not absorbing the b3 at all? Is it true if no flush is experienced that the b3 is not working?

    And last but not least, could I make myself deficient in the other B Vitamins by taking a high dose of Niacin even if my body needs it? I do take a Multi vitamin named Centrum because that is all I can afford right now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  9. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    If they have a 250mg version you can probably bet its non flush even if it doesn't directly state. I would not stay at 4000mg though you don't need anymore then 250mg a day and that is even upper limit. It causes some concernable side effects when you bump it up too far, one thing i remember is a negative effect on glucose control.
     
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  10. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Lily

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    Hmm, I'm not so sure that it's not Niacin but Niacinamide... I now am feeling a tingly pinchy sort of feeing in my nerves and over my face as if I'm blushing...not exactly flushing but blushing :p

    I'm torn between taking 250 mg a day to a 1000 mg a day as it gave me the best and refreshing sleep I've had in a while plus an anxiety-free day! I was able to go to a sleep before 10 and wake up at 4.

    Do you think it is still dangerous in high doses even if your body needs it? @Martial - Aren't high doses of Niacin used safely for anxiety, depression and schizophrenia?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
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  11. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Your body will never need over 1000mg a day I can promise you that, the doses used in treatment of those conditions doesn't or should not go over that dose. Some doctors might be misinformed if that is the case but there are plenty of studies that show some serious side effects when you start pushing the envelope too far with it. Any who I don't know about schizophrenia but anxiety and depression is easily treatable with drug and supplement free approaches, there are multitides of ways to go about it without risking adverse effects. I am also curious to know, have you ever been tested for pyroluria? Is something to definitely look into if you are also pursuing some kind of methylation support or protocol. It also has implications with chronic illness, anxiety, depression, adhd, bi polar, etc..

    http://pyroluriatesting.com/

    Here is a study showing toxicity from clinical trial with some patients,

    https://www.cardiosmart.org/News-and-Events/2013/03/In-High-Doses-Niacin-Causes-More-Harm-than-Good

    I am sure the niacin may be helping a lot so keep in a moderate range like you mentioned, however just be careful going too high on it as these types of things are important to be aware of. I have seen a lot of harmful things pushed out from alternative doctors and its important to research because not all of it is as safe as they claim.
     
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  12. lift

    lift

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    Doesnt that go against what most say here regarding taking "excess" methyl-folate? That it does ramp up methylation? I've read many times before and experienced myself that if i get very intolerable symptoms while taking b12 & methylfolate if I take niacin, not long after I feel much better.
     
  13. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @lift:
    I think it's a problem with definitions... What is over-methylation exactly?

    Maybe you're right, all I can say is that I have no evidence that symptoms of excessive anxiety correlate with over-methlyation.

    Why? Because I went through a period of very strong, almost intolerable anxiety taking sublingual methylfolate. I kept going for 6 weeks trying to modulate the dosage (800-1000mcg max) so that the anxiety wouldn't go out of control.

    When I tested my homocysteine level again it was almost the same value (actually worse) than I had before, when I was taking a smaller oral dose. Same high homocysteine level = same crappy methylation. :D

    Now I can tolerate higher doses of methylfolate and methyl-B12 and still my Hcy levels are sub-optimal and my glutathione and sam-e are below range, meaning under-methylation.

    If I was over-methylating I would have expected the labs to show it. E.g. moderate/high values of glutathione/sam-e and low or very low Hcy levels.

    Maybe other people here use the same label, over-methylation, for something else, but I am not sure if it's really correct. I think those are just methyl-folate side effects.

    Additionally people with a true over-methylator profile (e.g. Hcy < 6) don't necessarily suffer of horrible anxiety, so I am really not sure that this label is accurate.

    That's my 2c. I'd like to hear what other people think.
    Has anyone else checked their labs when they had these sorts of symptoms to see if there was anything different in their methylation?

    cheers
     
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  14. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Lily

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    Thank you so much for your well-informed reply, Very very helpful indeed @Martial. :)

    I have decided to stick with your advice, I guess I am just desperate to get well and when one thing works I get overexcited :( but I think a high dosage of Niacin may do me long-term damage and we certainly don't want that.

    I am going to see if there's any change in my sleep with taking 250 mg vis-a-vis 1000 mg a day. Which dose would you recommend btw, 250 mg or 1000 mg? :)

    I'm not schizophrenic but I do battle anxiety and depression. I have not been tested for Pyroluria, no. I don't reside in the states so I guess there is no way to tell.

    Can you tell me what Pyroluria is (in a nutshell), its symptoms, its relation with the methylation protocol and how it is treated?

    I know you have linked me to something but my immense brain fog (+ working 7 days a week) doesn't allow me to understand or absorb huge texts. Would appreciate a shorter explanation by you and if I feel better later, I'll waft through those pages.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/a-cry-out-for-help.33330/#post-515038
    Here is my story if you're interested, would really appreciate it if you could follow it and advise me. I will be posting more about my symptoms, diet and protocol in detail as soon as time allows.

    Namaste!
     
  15. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I live in Europe and I was able to test Pyroluria via this lab:
    http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/

    It's a urine test, the price is accessible ( < 100 euros). If you decide to do it make sure to test for HPL + Kryptopirroles, not just the latter.

    cheers
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I think you are correct Peter. I would love to be over-methylated because I'm sure I've got plenty of mycotoxins floating around my body that could use some excess glutathione :)

    Just taking methyl donors does not guarantee that your cycle will work correctly. There are lots of things I think that can interrupt proper methylation, like mycotoxins, Lyme toxins, retroviruses(?).

    Maybe what people describe as overmethylation is a symptom set of excess methyl groups floating around that the body cannot process due to the presence of biotoxins or retroviruses.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
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  17. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    There is the possibility of something like excess methionine, that can certainly cause some effects. Indeed viruses, fungi, bacteria, and many other things can prevent cells getting the nutrients they need.
     
  18. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    @caledonia

    Is healing from B12 still able to occur even when taking niacin?
     
  19. skyebean

    skyebean

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    I have a question regarding niacin. I'm on my second big jag of overmethylation. The last time I wanna say I was going for maybe 5 days, and I was having to take niacin constantly throughout the day. I would take 50-100 mgs at a time, flushing every once in awhile. The niacin worked, but I had to 'reapply often'.

    This second time around I mistakenly took too much sunflower lecithin, thinking it might not be as intense as TMG for me. It is, and I've been overmethylating for about 4 or 5 days now. I am again taking lots of niacin, but I have not been keeping track. I am guessing my dose is somewhere around 1000 mgs a day (give or take).

    I am concerned about this dosage, as I am finding info online about high doses causing irreversible liver damage. But I am also finding info about people using much higher doses safely. I am hoping these doses are okay in the short term.

    The reason I am concerned is because I woke up in the night, sweating, almost panicking. I read about up on high dose niacin after I had taken one (50mg), but I eventually calmed down and became very comfortable. I am avoiding everything right now, except for the Sparga drops, and I took a dose of activated charcoal yesterday. My reading on my sulfate strips went down from the >800 to >400 since yesterday. Could that reaction been some sort of detox?

    -and one more thing that I did differently last night. I used a topical cream for muscle soreness called Penetrex. It has MSM, B6, and something called Methyl Gluceth-20 in it. Could something topical contribute methyl donors like that?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    As far as I know, taking more than a certain amount (50-100mg or higher) would soak up methyl groups, slowing or stopping methylation. So if you kept it low, like 20mg, it should be ok.
     

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