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News of replication of WPI XMRV study...

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by Wildaisy, Nov 26, 2009.

  1. Andrew

    Andrew Senior Member

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    Los Angeles, USA
    Looks like there are at least two German Studies:

    Hohn O, Krause H, Barbarotto P, Niederstadt L, Beimforde N, Denner J, Miller K, Kurth R, and Bannert N. Lack of evidence for xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV) in German prostate cancer patients. Retrovirology 2009. 6:92.

    Lombardi VC, Ruscetti FW, Das Gupta J, Pfost MA, Hagen KS, Peterson DL, Ruscetti SK, Bagni RK, Petrow-Sadowski C, Gold B, Dean M, Silverman RH, and Mikovits JA. Detection of an Infectious Retrovirus, XMRV, in Blood Cells of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Science 2009. 326: 585-589.

    Schlaberga R, Choeb DJ, Browna KR, Thakerb HM, and Singh IR. XMRV is present in malignant prostatic epithelium and is associated with prostate cancer, especially high-grade tumors. PNAS 2009. 106: 16351-16356.

    Urisman A, Molinaro RJ, Fischer N, Plummer SJ, Casey G, Klein EA, Malathi K, Magi-Galluzzi C, Tubbs RR, Ganem D, Silverman RH, DeRisi JL. Identification of a Novel Gammaretrovirus in Prostate Tumors of Patients Homozygous for R462Q RNASEL Variant. PLoS Pathogen 2006 2:211-225.

    Fischer N, Hellwinkel O, Schulz C, Chun FK, Huland H, Aepfelbacher M, Schlomm T: Prevalence of human gammaretrovirus XMRV in sporadic prostate cancer. J Clin Virol 2008. 43:277-283.

    D'Arcy F, R. Foley, A. Perry, L. Marignol, M. Lawler, E. Gaffney, R. Watson, J. Fitzpatrick, T. Lynch: No evidence of XMRV in Irish prostate cancer patients with the R462Q mutation. European Urology Supplements 2008. 7:271.
  2. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    > My GP, who is the best Lyme Doc up here, says she is not convinced that xmrv is anymore the puppetmaster than Lyme.

    That's not supportable if you ask me. There is almost no evidence that borreliae is present in us. It is certainly possible.
  3. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    > Active XRMV only found in lab mice and not wild field mice - as they lack the gene to be infected.

    Not so. They lack the receptor for xenotropic MuLVs, but they can still have it endogenously.

    Coffin: "So Xenotropic MLV is inherited as an endogenous provirus meaning its in the germline, about 10-20 copies, in all inbred mice, and in a much greater copy number in some wild mice"
  4. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    USA.Earth
    OK, this is totally OT, but FWIW, I agree.

    Somewhere on the way to medical prosperity I think the profession lost their critical thinking ability and also their ethics.

    You might like this: http://www.naturalnews.com/023610_hepatitis_hepatitis_B_vaccination.html

    And this: http://www.naturodoc.com/library/bio-war/HepB.htm

    Newborns are already at risk of early-stage birth conditions, and do not have a fully developed immune system yet. They really do not need to have their immunity challenged that way.

    If I understood the numbers in that naturalnews article above, there were around 50 deaths annually from side-effects of the HepB vaccination in infants in the 1990s, and probably none from HepB itself (only 5 reported infections in 2005 in young children). But the vaccination brings in over $1B per year so nobody is held to account.

    Greed-based medical economics does not work in the best interest of patients. The invisible hand has a guilded glove in medicine...
  5. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    There are studies that show no Lyme in CFS but I also read a study once that showed somewhere around 40% of PWC are infected with borrelia. There is controversy over Lyme testing, that might be part of this issue. But here is an interesting study that shows the converse, that CFS is present in many cases of Lyme Disease:

  6. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    American medicine is certainly corrupt in one way. The AMA limits the number of MDs that may be minted, thats a hard fact. Its called rent-seeking behavior, or having your hand in the county's pocket. Limit the amount of the good thats available, and the price can go up arbitrarily high. All the material wealth and economic productivity we enjoy is based on free competition, and theyre blocking it.

    Their scientific thinking isnt very corrupt at all (nor is that of biologists). It is hyper-scrupulous. Everything they say in print is subject to experiment, so a bunch of nonsense stand. Not for long anyway, except in unusual cases. And like anyone, they dont want to harm people directly in an obvious way, though they dont mind doing rent-seeking behavior which *seems* so much more abstract and "harmless" -- that is, we dont recognize it intuitively as a harm. If theres anything else they are corrupt on, its being able to be influence to recommend antidepressant X to patients instead of Y -- but *only* if it is equally safe and effective (but perhaps more expensive - after all whats money?).

    Nevertheless, they are not infallable. Though it seems like vaccine safety standards are high, I dont see why you would vacc a baby with something it is not immediately at risk for -- why not wait till age 2 or something.
  7. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    Steere published work saying the opposite of what that Pole says -- that history of lyme didnt increase the risk of CFS. Its hard to trust when something is so ideologically polarized. Still, I think theres only a small chance he would lie.
  8. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    One possibility is that the reality actually is different in Poland than it is in the USA. Though more likely, someone is just wrong.

    Anyway, when papers conflict, whats left is only very modest evidence for the claim, at best, unless one believes one can explain, with good odds, why one side is wrong.
  9. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    Another good pro-lyme paper is Hulinska's (Dagmar Hulinska I think) "Persistence of borrelia" or something very like that.

    I was kind of a lyme believer long ago. But I came to think that that paper and others dont really provide all that much support.
  10. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Sorry my wording could have been better. She wasn't saying that all PWC's have Lyme. She knows better than that. She was responding to my concerns that if xmrv is truly the Puppetmaster, and I'm positive, then I should start antiretroviral treatment immediately off the Vistide so that I don't have re-activated CMV. If it's not the puppetmaster, I can let the research unfold while I work on treating the Lyme. She was saying that we don't know xmrv to be the Puppetmaster anymore than Lyme (for those who have it).

    Hope thats better...thanks for pointing it out.
  11. Samuel

    Samuel Bedbound with NO DOCTOR

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    I like the idea of making our own machine. It's cheap, and if we aren't getting enough researchers around the world (e.g. if they get bored with XMRV or don't concentrate enough on coinfections) then we can have a graduate student somewhere to subset us (and let us know individually) by coinfections.
  12. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Right on the money Kurt....Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for those great links.
  13. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    All my Lyme friends also have the diagnosis of CFS. I think Lyme can cause CFS, but not all CFS is caused by Lyme. My Lymie friends can really get on my nerves trying to convince me that all ME/CFS is caused by Lyme. I just say....Oh Really? How about cluster outbreaks? The tics rush the school one day?

    Anyhow, those stats are really interesting Kurt, thanks
  14. Ruth

    Ruth Member

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    Bravo, Koan!! This is a very good distinction. Reeves' comment (that he didn't think it would be replicated) seemed definitely aimed at shaping expectations and he might have defended it by saying he was just trying to prepare people for the truth. I have wondered reading this thread if some of the rumors that have been picked up were intentionally "planted" -- I have found this not infrequently done in the hallowed halls of science. We judge Reeves' comment by its source. How can you evaluate something without a source?
  15. Megan

    Megan Senior Member

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    WPI and ViraCor - Question for Cort or anyone?

    Cort,

    A few posts back you said:


    This is probably a red herring; they later did genetic studies that indicated that XMRV from the WPI is very much like the XMRV from prostate cancer but it would interesting to know why ViraCor didn't pick it up. Does it signify anything?"


    I am concerned about your comments above as I also watched a presentation by Judy Mikovits at a U.K. conference last year (I think Invest in ME) and she said they were using that technology to screen CFS patients. I had been wondering what had come of this? Do you know for sure that they didn't find XMRV? Or is it just that they haven't said anything?

    It seems to me that it is not a red herring, but a major omission if they couldn't find it using the ViraCor technology and they left this out of their paper? I dont think genetic variability would exlain it as my understanding is that we are still talking the same virus (XMRV) in both prostate cancer and CFS. Dr. Coffin also said the greatest genetic variation was between two prostate cancer patients. In any case the ViraCor technology should have picked it up.

    But then again it seems too weird to me that WPI would not address this if they thought it was a concern. They are going to be the ones with the most egg on their faces if they have got this wrong, so why would they ignore such a discrepancy? Could there be another explanation for this? Was there a limit on how many cases they could run? Was XMRV on the ViraCor chip when they did their investigations? Do WPI think the ViraCor technology unreliable for some reason? Could there be some sort of intellectual property issue going on? Or could they have positive results unreleased?

    I also recall Judy saying at the conference that they thought there was another herpes virus that they were looking for (they called it 5.5)? Unless that was just a ruse for XMRV?


    Megan (new member).

    P.S. I have been watching this site for some time since the XMRV announcement. I really appreciate the effort of Cort in putting it all together, and to everyone for the great discussions that are going on here.
  16. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Well said Kurt.

  17. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Megan,

    Welcome to the board. I just wanted to point out that Judy Mikovits does refer to finding a "novel retrovirus" in some of their patients at the 2008 IiME conference, just after she mentions the new herpes virus, the one she calls 5.5. She doesnt mention it in last yrs conference, unless I missed it. When I watched it I wondered if she was referring to XMRV.

    For anyone who doesnt have them, the Invest in ME conferences are well worth investing in.

  18. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Thinking about pathogens...

    LOL the ticks rushed the school. For sure...

    Just this morning while half asleep and opening my emails I saw new research on malaria, which has 60 different molecular variants, each one requiring the body to produce new/different antibodies. No wonder a person can get infected and reinfected. Moreover, just a few of those variants cause cerebral malaria--i.e. virulent. Moreover, if I'm remembering my sleepy read this morning, when the bug gets into a person, if it's expressing variants the host already has antibodies too, it just fricken SWITCHES. To really cause a new infection and get going...

    I have to say, with all the new research on lyme (from the Oct 24 conference--new studies on prevalence in ticks, which is as high as 90% in areas of Connecticut; and coinfection rates, as high as 33% for babesia etc; plus the microfilarial worms in ticks that Burgdorfer found back in the 1980s are now being studied, plus they're finding that doxycycline eliminates active spirochetes but causes them to convert to cyst form so no wonder my six weeks of doxy early in infection did little to really help...) anyway, from all that and thinking about what they're finding out about the malaria bug, I have to conclude I simply got a virulent strain with coinfections. I have to conclude they'll find the same kind of variance in borrelia as they do in malaria. I have to conclude I had really bad luck as the owner of the house whose garden we were standing in, not only didn't get bit by the tick that day, but I happened to get a really BAD tick.

    Bugs are so infinitely clever. But bad luck is so annoying.
  19. Eric Johnson from I&I

    Eric Johnson from I&I Senior Member

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    Megan,
    I agree this sounds somewhat concerning, but what is the Viracor chip or Viracor screen? Both exact phrases are not found on google, except on this thread.

    I assume you are talking about a DNA chip, ie a DNA microarray?

    One possibility is it just didnt work -- sometimes that happens and just cant be explained really.
  20. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    As you know Ross it was the same with me too...almost the same yr and same Hep B vaccine trigger although unlike you I did have an acute viral onset. Also knowing that CMV has been a big problem for you makes me think that we are kind of similar as when I was tested for CMV 3 yrs ago which is the only time that I have ever been tested for CMV, I was found to have off the scale IGG titers. I also tested positive for EBV but the titres were not as high. I was -ve for HHV-6

    But then again I also have lyme and the coinfections too...although my lyme tests were -ve but I tested +ve for bartonella and erhlichia, so I was diagnosed with lyme clinically. I did work in the North East of the USA (Catskill mountains) the yr I got ill and I believe this area is rife with lyme so I may have picked up those infections then. Though I was already ill at that point anyway so I dont really see myself as a classic lyme patient, more a viral one with the initial vaccine trigger disturbing my body's ecology which has perhaps allowed other critters to jump onboard and/or allowed latent infections in my body to become active.

    Anyway it is very interesting and encouraging to me that you have done so well on the Vistide and it will be interesting to know if you test positive to XMRV.

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