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New video: Is acetylcholine toxicity the cause of CFS?

Discussion in 'Autonomic, Cardiovascular, and Respiratory' started by Emootje, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I've experimented on and off over the years with piracetam. I normally only take a small dose of about 50-100 mg. (about 1/10 of a normal 800 mg capsule) every couple weeks or so, and generally try to remember to take it on a day when I'm anticipating a need to do more cognitive stuff. I take it because it works well for me, and I notice a temporary improvement in my cognitive dysfunction. I don't take it more often, because if I do, I start to feel wired after a few days, and it begins to lose its effectiveness.

    I'm not sure if this works temporarily for me because it boosts acetylcholine, but since I'm taking some this morning, it's on my mind. I was wondering if you've learned any more since your post about the significance of acetylcholine in CFS, and/or whether any CFS practitioners are putting much emphasis on it, or on the measurements that are available through Health Diagnostics & Research Institute.

    Thanks, Wayne
     
  2. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    Thanks for this post. I was wondering if you continue to use these supplements simultaneously to improve cognitive function. I've used piracetam in the past with success, but have found that the positive effects lessen after a few days, and I eventually reach the point where I begin to feel wired on it (somewhat similar to coffee).

    I guess a specific question I have is whether you have found any particular "-cetam" to work better for you than others. I believe there's aniracetam, Oxiracetam, and perhaps more. Any feedback would be appreciate. Thanks. :)

    Wayne
     
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Wayne.

    Sorry, I don't think I have anything new to add. As far as I know, the mechanism of piracetam is still not well understood, though there is some evidence that cholinergic neural transmission is involved. Health Diagnostics does measure acetylcholine on platelets, and I have seen some lower than normal values in PWMEs, but I haven't received many measurements of it. On the results of the questionnaire I use, there are indications of low acetylcholine function in PWMEs.

    Do you find that piracetam helps you with recall, such as with word finding, and with keeping your focus?

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  4. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for your prompt reply. Yes, piracetam does help considerably with word finding and keeping my focus. I took a very small amount with my tea today, and am feeling fairly amazed by how much research I'm getting done this morning. Unfortunately, it seems I can only "go to the well" a few times (perhaps 3-4 days in a row) before the benefits start to reverse, and I begin to feel wired when taking it, which starts to diffuse my ability to focus.

    When I was researching piracetam years ago, I remember a number of references being made to its ability to "connect the two hemispheres of the brain". Interesting concept that I've wondered about. I think one possibility is its purported neuroprotective properties. I also seem to remember the amino acid L-pyroglutamate has been reported by some to have a similar effect. --- I just did a quick search, and came across this website which appears to have a pretty good write up on this topic:

    Relentless Improvement Website

    Best, Wayne

    From the above linked website:
     
  5. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    One more interesting tidbit about piracetam: I've heard it is very popular in other countries and is often used on surgery patients. The reason is that it helps the body use oxygen and if oxygen flow is disrupted during surgery, damage can be delayed from a normal of 5 minutes to as much as 45 minutes.
     
  6. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Lucy,

    I found that a relatively simple atlas adjustment relieved a lot of pressure on my vagus nerve, and led to a number of improvements for me. Here's a link to a post I made a few years ago on the ProHealth message board describing some of my experiences:

    Cranial Nerves - Vagus Nerve - Digestion - Atlas Profilax

    I listed many of my improvements in the last post on that particular thread.

    Best, Wayne
     
  7. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    Emootje,

    If acetylcholine toxicity (too much ace., correct?) is at the root of CFS, why not give patients Atropine injections and see if they feel better? Or some kind of dosage.

    The Atropine self-injector was widely issued to NATO troops for protection against nerve agent attack (Sarin, VX, etc). The ingredients were tested, approved by defense establishments of various countries. No question that it works for this limited purpose.

    Personally, I think the whacked 'rest and digest' system in CFS patients is because of a different dynamic in the HPA. It is the result of something more insidious than just ingesting nightshades or organophosphates. But that is JMHO...


    Atropine is a naturally occurring tropane alkaloid extracted from deadly nightshade (Atropa belladonna), Jimson weed (Datura stramonium), mandrake (Mandragora officinarum) and other plants of the family Solanaceae. It is a secondary metabolite of these plants and serves as a drug with a wide variety of effects. It is a competitive antagonist for the muscarinic acetylcholine receptor types M1, M2, M3, M4 and M5.[1] It is classified as an anticholinergic drug (parasympatholytic).
     
  8. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    I want to reply to this post as well as Sushi's post # 53. First of all, what medication functions as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, Sushi? I have an awful time with NMH and hope to finally see an autonomic specialist later on this fall.

    Spoke to a doctor friend recently who tried to explain how the nervous system uses acetylcholine, epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine in the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches. Didn't get it all, but these three seem to be the main characters in this plot. I was very interested to re-read this thread too and re-discover its information on this as well as the evidence for an autoimmune attack on at least some kinds of receptors for nerve transmission. My fight or flight function dropped out years ago--long list of symptoms. But it is the worsening hypotension, also neuropathy and spontaneous blood vessel breaks in hands or feet which are "un-nerving" me. Ha, ha.
     
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Strattera is the norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor that worked well for me. I had to ease into it over about 6 weeks--starting with about a third of a capsule every other day. It worked well and within a half an hour--OI gone until the drug wore off--but after a year or two I didn't want to take this type of drug anymore, it was very expensive, and my OI was better.

    It doesn't work for everyone with NMH (what does!?) but it worked well for me and had been featured at a medical conference on dysautonomia.

    There are also a number of combo norep and seratonin reup inhibitors like cymbalta, but strattera worked best for me.

    Do you have a particular autonomic specialist in mind? Just curious. If you don't want to post the name, you could PM me.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
     
    Sing likes this.
  10. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Thank you for this detailed answer, Sushi! I live in another part of the country and will be going to the only Neurologist at the big medical center nearby who specializes in the area of autonomic dysfunction. As he did his residency at Mount Sinai in New York City, I am just hoping that he may be sympathetic (sympathetic and parasympathetic) to ME. But it may be better not to say who he is until after I go and see what he thinks and does. Right now he is just a listing on a website. I got his name recently from searching for specialists on Dysautonomia sites. It is amazing to me how few Neurologists deal with this area of their specialty. Why do you think this is?
     
  11. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    From what I have heard, most dysautonomia specialists are not neurologists--and unfortunately probably the majority of neurologists don't know much about the issues that concern us--hopefully this doc will be different!

    The reason why I was asking who is was is cause I might have heard something about him that might give you an idea of what to expect.

    I hope it works out.

    Sushi
     
    Sing likes this.
  12. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

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    I actually did try low dose atropine and notice no difference in symptoms. It could be that the dose was way to small or that my hypothesis was incorrect. I find a higher dose to risky, so I decided to leave this hypothesis and spent more time on the inflammation/endothelin-1/atrial natriuretic peptide theory.
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    There is a nice video here :

    It looks like the same process which is happening with excitotoxicity of MSG on the sympathetic system (ischemic cascade) but for the parasympathetic.
    Best wishes,
    Asklipia
     
  14. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    I would think acetylcholine deficiency from excessive stimulation of angiotensin 2 receptors would be more likely than acetylcholine toxicity. Too bad there aren't more experiments.
     
  15. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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  16. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    What type of doctor does take an interest in dysautonomic problems then? It seems crazy to me that it isn't Neurologists, since they are the ones with years of study about the nervous system.
     
  17. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Sing,

    I don't know if the dysautonomia specialists come primarily from one or another specialty. Since it isn't listed as a separate specialty and it is rare for doctors to develop in strong interest in it, I think many of those who do specialize in it have some personal interest. There are very, very few dysautonomia specialists.

    Some are cardiologists--though most cardiologists have little clue about it. The one I used to see (and he only saw patients with autonomic dysfunction) had been an internist before going back to medical school to study the autonomic nervous system. He had personal reasons to specialize in dysautonomia. They probably come from a variety of backgrounds. The best known one, Dr. Blair Grubb, is an electrophysiologist.

    You have probably looked at the forum on POTSPLACE.com--which has its own address as http://forums.dinet.org/ POTSplace.com has a physician list.

    Sushi
     
  18. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Histamine could also link into this, or at least antihistamine agents - could be why some do well on them, while others can't tolerate them at all

    They talk about firs-generation antihistamines but I believe the newer ones have the same 'flooring' effect on many PWCs ?
     
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Vinpocetine also raises acetylcholine. It seems it does a lot of other good things too such as boosting ATP and increasing oxygen to the brain:
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-vinpocetine.htm
    I have heard of people having side effects from vinpocetine. I'm not sure if the side effects are from the ACh or something else or both.
     
  20. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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