• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

New Rituximab ME/CFS open-label phase II study with rituximab maintenance treatment

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
I had some immunology classes back in med school and there are still several things, I don't really get. Maybe you can help, Prof. Edwards?

Our Prof told us, that autoimmune diseases are often triggered by infections, psychological traumatic events, chronic stress or surgeries. Basically by anything, which stresses the immune system to a large enough amount. He mentioned, that the malfunctioning T and B cells are already there, but a random stressful event and the following immune and cytokine turmoil activates them. Is that just an nice theory, or do we have actual empirical data for this claim?

It is a nice hypothesis. If we had strong empirical data, only then it would be a theory...

What you have described seems rather vague (the same goes for the media article BurnA mentioned) and more needs to be clearer and more specific for it to be a meaningful hypothesis or theory.

Actually, to be specific the damage of receptors by pathogens, or the downstream effects of psychological stress is basically a short term effect only and in itself cannot lead to chronic illness.

The possibly relevant papers from Griffith University in 2015 are here:
http://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc...tigue-syndrome-patients-2155-9899-1000288.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2172/16/35
 
Last edited:

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Our Prof told us, that autoimmune diseases are often triggered by infections, psychological traumatic events, chronic stress or surgeries. Basically by anything, which stresses the immune system to a large enough amount. He mentioned, that the malfunctioning T and B cells are already there, but a random stressful event and the following immune and cytokine turmoil activates them. Is that just an nice theory, or do we have actual empirical data for this claim?

Basically, immunologists are intellectually lazy and they are sheep. The idea that autoimmune disease was triggered by infection started up in the 1960s, simply because of rheumatic fever, which is not an autoimmune disease but is triggered by an infection. It looks enough like rheumatoid arthritis for RA to be named -oid after it - but that is simply because both involve immune complexes. And it is because RA looked a bit like rheumatic fever that a lot of infectious disease specialists became rheumatologists when they were out of a job when penicillin came along in 1946.

When it became clear that a genetic component was likely the immunology sheep all had slides made up that looked like the slides the other sheep put up saying disease was caused by genetics and environment. That way everyone knew they were really cool flock members with white hot ideas.

Except for a black sheep called Paul Stastny, who actually discovered what the main genetic link was - the 'B cell antigen Dw4' (now known as HLA DR4). Pal had a quiet, sensible way of lecturing and always pointed out that apart from the genetic factor the rest of the causation looked random (stochastic). He was well enough read to know that in epidemiology stochastic components are an essential part of the model. Nobody listened.

So it sounds as if your Prof was one of the usual white sheep. The molecular mimicry theory was designed to explain rheumatic fever but it does not even do that -nobody ever found the mimic antigen.

Years later it was discovered that smoking lowers your threshold to get RA. We still do not know why but it may have to do with citrullination of proteins in damaged lung. It may not. But infection and trauma and psychological stress - as far as I know the evidence is 95% weighted against any relevance for those for most autoimmune diseases. You get sheep in Australia I am told!

If you eradicate almost any B cells, why isn't the body prone to more nasty opportunistic infections? I know, B cells aren't the only defence of the body, but shouldn't the loss of B cells be a larger problem for the immune system? The good plasma cells tend to live longer and continue to produce antibodies against old pathogens, right? But what about new pathogens? With no B cells, new plasma cells cannot develop against new pathogens and new antibodies cannot tag them. So is the rest of the immune defence enough to keep them in check?

B cells are actually a fat lot of use if you meet a new infection. It takes about 21 days to develop a full IgG response to a new antigen. Most infections kill you long before that - maybe in a week or so. So the function of antibody is really to stop you having to fight off a second dose - to nip it in the bud with memory antibody - and perhaps most important of all to provide newborn babies with something to keep them alive when they first come in to the world and start meeting germs all over the floor.

There is no doubt that there is something surprising about the fact that rituximab helps autoimmune disease without causing hardly any problems for most people. As Martin Glennie said when he introduced me at a conference 'Jo's treatment idea was nuts but it seems it turned out to be right'. It looks as if it relates to plasma cell half life as you say.

I did tell patients on the early rituximab studies not to travel to Sharm El Sheik or Mobutu if they could help it while having rituximab but in fact tropical diseases are even less antibody dependent than the usual ones and I have not heard of any problems with travel since.

B cells are really trainee cells. You can be without them for m onths. And they were never a front line army.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
One would probably expect cyclo to work quickly however it worked so I am not sure one can drw any further conclusions. There are too many unknowns.
Do you have any concerns or reservations about cyclo ? I get the impression it is akin to dropping bombs to destroy everything in the hope of taking out a target whereas RTX is more like a sniper who can focus on the target with minimal damage to anything else ? ( my analogies need a bit of work to get to your high standard :))
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Do you have any concerns or reservations about cyclo ? I get the impression it is akin to dropping bombs to destroy everything in the hope of taking out a target whereas RTX is more like a sniper who can focus on the target with minimal damage to anything else ? ( my analogies need a bit of work to get to your high standard :))

The problem with cyclo is the hematological toxicity the drug creates. By hematological toxicity I mean that your white blood cells, especially the neutrophils have a potential to come very close to zero for a period of time, usually 7 to 10 days after receiving chemo. And when that happens, patients are prone to all kinds of opportunistic infections, including getting sepsis which can be life threatening if not treated right away.

There are other longer term side effects (bladder toxicity is a worry)

Patients on this kind of therapy should only get it from very experienced professionals. There needs to be strict guidelines in place to mke these infusions safer, not only during the infusion, but afterwards when the patients returns in his community. Things get rather complicated when a local physician learns you have that darn disease no doctor wants to deal with and on top of that you have received a drug no patients like you should ever receive.

The circumstances as they are in Norway are ideal, for oncologists do the monitoring and well trained staff know how to manage the problems when a patient phones.
 
Last edited:

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Do you have any concerns or reservations about cyclo ? I get the impression it is akin to dropping bombs to destroy everything in the hope of taking out a target whereas RTX is more like a sniper who can focus on the target with minimal damage to anything else ? ( my analogies need a bit of work to get to your high standard :))

The analogy is pretty reasonable. Kati sums it up.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
The problem with cyclo is the hematological toxicity the drug creates. By hematological toxicity I mean that your white blood cells, especially the neutrophils have a potential to come very close to zero for a period of time, usually 7 to 10 days after receiving chemo. And when that happens, patients are prone to all kinds of opportunistic infections, including getting sepsis which can be life threatening if not treated right away.

There are other longer term side effects (bladder toxicity is a worry)

Patients on this kind of therapy should only get it from very experienced professionals. There needs to be strict guidelines in place to mke these infusions safer, not only during the infusion, but afterwards when the patients returns in his community. Things get rather complicated when a local physician learns you have that darn disease no doctor wants to deal with and on top of that you have received a drug no patients like you should ever receive.

The circumstances as hey are in Norway is ideal, for oncologists do the monitoring and well trained staff know how to manage the problems when a patient phones.

Thanks. Would a local doctor ever be administering this drug though ? I get the impression it belongs in the hands of an oncologist ? If so and if it's administered by well trained people would the risks be tolerable and or minimised ?
I do wonder who would prescribe it for an me/cfs patient. ( assuming we dont visit oncologists)
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
It looks rather as if you can if your plasma cells keep busy. Some people have had very long B cell depletion periods after rituximab - 4 or 5 years - and there does not seem to be a problem. Maybe twenty years is pushing it but we don;t know yet.

How does cyclo's impact on b cells compare with RTX ? Would similar relapse be expected or is it too soon to speculate. I presume regular cyclo therapy would not really be an option.?
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Except for a black sheep called Paul Stastny, who actually discovered what the main genetic link was - the 'B cell antigen Dw4' (now known as HLA DR4). Pal had a quiet, sensible way of lecturing and always pointed out that apart from the genetic factor the rest of the causation looked random (stochastic). He was well enough read to know that in epidemiology stochastic components are an essential part of the model. Nobody listened.

Peter Stastny? :)

http://profiles.utsouthwestern.edu/profile/16959/peter-stastny.html

HLA-D and IA antigens in rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus erythematosus (June 1978!)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/art.1780210921/abstract
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Thanks. Would a local doctor ever be administering this drug though ? I get the impression it belongs in the hands of an oncologist ? If so and if it's administered by well trained people would the risks be tolerable and or minimised ?
I do wonder who would prescribe it for an me/cfs patient. ( assuming we dont visit oncologists)
There are many problems that needs to be ironed out before a physician is ready to offer it.
1) who will be mixing and giving the drug? Accurate dosage is critical here. Handling this drug is a hazard, usually requires industrial ventilation and equipment for preparation purposes and nurses who are administering it need to take precautions too.
2) who prescribes the drug?
Rheumatologists do give cyclophosphamide. Those would be most appropriate but they are usually not considering ME within their scope of practice.
3) who is responsible for follow up? Someone has to take responsibility
4) how are adverse events managed and reported? Since this drug would be used for a new disease, these adverse events need to be monitored.
5)what is the recommended dosage and frequency?
6) the dreaded endpoint: how is success of therapy defined?

There are many more questions and so little answers for now, and the fact that we do not have a medical specialty or Center for Excellence makes it more difficult to perform trials and gain experience with new drugs.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
@Kati, is it common for rheumatologists to prescribe cyclo? I think I would feel more safe if I was treated in a hospital in an oncology department when we're talking about IV chemo. In Norway cyco is only used in R.A in special circumstances where inner organs are affected.
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
@Kati, is it common for rheumatologists to prescribe cyclo? I think I would feel more safe if I was treated in a hospital in an oncology department when we're talking about IV chemo. In Norway cyco is only used in R.A in special circumstances where inner organs are affected.
It varies where you live @deleder2k, but here in Canada oncologists are not allowed to see non-cancer patients. rheumatologists are getting more and more used with administering biologics including biologics which induce all kinds of nasty side effects including neutropenia.

In the case of Rituximab, I would prefer getting it administered in an oncology ward (I used to be a chemo nurse). In the case of cycle, the infusion is very uneventful. Infusion-related reactionto cyclo I have never seen. However the follow-up and surveillance needs to be done by an experienced physicians who knows a thing or 2 about the drug. Moreover, I would want to ensure there has been no mistake in dosage calculation or preparation because it matters a lot.

An oncology pharmacy is used to preparing these drugs, and the calculations and the dosage have been triple checked once the chemo arrives in the patient room. It matters a lot.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
IMoreover, if the bad B cells can be cleared out, as it seems they can for immune thrombocytopenia, then in theory you are back to being completely normal and healthy with no reason to relapse. In reality at present we tend to see relapse in a lot autoimmune diseases after rituximab but we know that we are not clearing out the B cells completely. Better drugs are coming along but it takes time.

Does this mean relapse it inevitable unless all B cells are cleared out or can they be depleted enough so that relapse is avoidable ?
The new B cells - are they completely reset to being normal so to speak ?
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
@BurnA, the patients doctor told me about the significant response. It is only one patient though. We need to wait and see how other RTX non responders are doing.
Thanks @deleder2k .
I know its very early days but does anyone have any information regarding relaspe with Cyclo ? Is it or would it be expected to be similar to RTX ? Olav mella spoke of the initial cancer patients whose ME/CFS symtoms went away after Cyclo therapy, do we know if they relapsed ?
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
OK But maybe some of the details ??

How about the responders who dont relapse - is it because their B cell levels stay low or have their B cell levels returned to normal without relapsing ?


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026358 You can get some info about it here. It seems that some relapse immediately when B-cells return, some relapse after a few years. Some have been in remission for 5+ years with B-cells back. We don't really know much about it.


@BurnA, I don't know about relapse with cyclo. The study has just started... We have to wait as @Jonathan Edwards points out.
 

beaker

ME/cfs 1986
Messages
773
Location
USA
It varies where you live @deleder2k, but here in Canada oncologists are not allowed to see non-cancer patients. rheumatologists are getting more and more used with administering biologics including biologics which induce all kinds of nasty side effects including neutropenia.

In the case of Rituximab, I would prefer getting it administered in an oncology ward (I used to be a chemo nurse). In the case of cycle, the infusion is very uneventful. Infusion-related reactionto cyclo I have never seen. However the follow-up and surveillance needs to be done by an experienced physicians who knows a thing or 2 about the drug. Moreover, I would want to ensure there has been no mistake in dosage calculation or preparation because it matters a lot.

An oncology pharmacy is used to preparing these drugs, and the calculations and the dosage have been triple checked once the chemo arrives in the patient room. It matters a lot.

My cat had chemo and I gave her cytoxin (cyclophosphamide) in pill form. I had emergency ABX at home to give immediately if fever. I had to take temp daily. It had to be stored in fridge and handled w/ gloves. I had to give fluids to help flush it through kidneys/bladder.
Can it not be given in pill form to people too ? Takes away a lot of infusion costs.(although we are long way from this just curious)