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NEW - Revised Active B12 and Folate Protocol with Micro-titration

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I have been trying to get this all ready for a grand, all at once posting and it just isn't working out. Instead I am going to post this in pieces for now with all sorts of parts revised.

    Overview - The problem biggest problem with the Active B12 protocol up to now has been the complications that are especially difficult all at once for those who like me had/have massive brain-fog. It took me 9 years to figure out and then it lacked all the specifics people wanted, and as individual answers were all individual, people got confused in trying to generalize. So I am going to do my best at trying to make it more clear, more definite and so on. Since it is a dynamic process I will be including a number of decision tree routine, a number of hold points by criteria for balancing and so on. I will be posting some of the components before I put down how they interact rather than trying to answer all the questions after posting the process. When I am directly coaching people through it I get much better results than somebody just trying it because of that dynamic process. So I will try to present that here.

    I have found that ORDER of supplements can be critical to success as are combinations. I will attempt to represent that as clearly as possible. I expect each and every post to need clarification and pribably revision as people ask questions and I try to explain it differently.

    A couple of years ago I indicated that there are the 4 basic b12 deficiency syndromes. Now I have also found 4 specific paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency syndromes and some other complications. Where I can I will distinguish how these differences affect the protocol. A lot of this we will find out together as additional areas get filled in on this matrix.

    Each time I learn a significant new piece of information, everything gets reconsidered and maybe revised,

    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed here and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
    L'engle likes this.
  2. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    One suggestion, if you are going to use decision trees, is to create some online tools that eliminate the massive slabs of text and just present one question at a time and step people through it automatically. I have reasonable cognitive functioning and I would still really struggle with those pages. I still think you need more disclaimers too, if only to fit in with the PR guidelines on giving medical advice.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    Good advice all the way around. I'm trying to get things down in some sort of coherent form. What I envision in the end is an interactive, one question at a time app for for smartphones, tablets and PCs, etc., with disclaimers warnings etc all the way around. I come out of a securities and insurance background with a strong commitment to "full and fair disclosure" all the way around.

    So, here you are, Adster.


    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed here and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
    Adster likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    MICRO TITRATION OF JARROW'S LIQUID CARNITINE


    Lately I have been suggesting the Jarrow liquid l-carnitine which is not the fumarate but rather the free base and it appears to be equally effective for those trying it so far.


    So, the concentration looks like this.


    15ml = 1 tablespoon = 1000mg

    There are 20 drops per ml, 300 drops per tablespoon.

    There are 3.33 mg/drop.


    If a person adds 1 2/3 ml (syringe) plus 1 drop of carnitine liquid, each drop of the resulting 33 drops contains 100 mcg. This dilution should be discarded daily but if needed several doses can reliably be had from it in a day if refrigerated. Ideally it should be prepared with distilled water available at the supermarket. By controlling the amount of water added different concentrations can be made. If a person prepares 330drops in total with 1 drop of full strength, then each drop is 10mcg. If 1 drop of 100mcg is added to 9 drops of water, each drop is then 10mcg, for titration.

    Known hypersensitives to carnitine appear to be able to start with 100mcg on an empty stomach and increase 10% each day. However, results may vary.
    Some methods of titration will be posted later. These conversion numbers are important.



    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
  5. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    So is the L=carnitine the first in the order of supplements ?
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Drex,

    No, In this revised protocol, first all the basics, then titrating mb12, adb12 and Metafolin to certain criteria unless maximum information is needed, a pause to balance potassium and methylfolate, then a specified l-carnitine titrated or microtitrated depending upon certain other considerations, then a rebalance of potassium and Metafolin before continuing. I wanted to get the micro titration specified before using it.



    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.

     
  7. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Can we just put a drop on our tongue without the water?
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    A drop would be way too much for some people with an extreme deficiency reaction. The dilution is for purposes of being able to lower the dose to 100mcg or whatever and the 10mcg dilution for a daily titration. Several ways to do the titration will follow. However, if a person needs a drop there is no reason not to take it directly. When a person gets up to 125 or 250 mg they can get capsules. The liquid is for the intial very low titration for those who need it who have anxiety and certain ptehr symptoms indocating they need it slow.
     
  9. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Fred
    I posted this on another thread yesterday but you probably missed it. Would you mind giving me your thoughts please?

    I am wondering why some of us only seem to need about 1/4 of Jarrow 5000 mcg MB12 and 400 mcg of active folates? I have found that if I go any higher on both of these I develop a hyper response, ie brain way over stimulated so much so I cannot switch off, difficulty staying asleep, all in all almost slightly manic with a tendance to anger and aggression. Obviously they are upsetting my neurotransmitters.

    I have everything else in place as regarding the other supplements. One important thing I should add is that this has only really happened since I started having to breathe in oxygen for an average of 3 hours a day (not in one go) because my tissue saturation for oxygen was so low. It has made a massive difference to how I feel right from the first dose. It would seem so much damage has taken place since I first got sick in 1979.

    Also I should add that for the past 2 weeks I have been taking 500 methionine with extra zinc and selenium followed by 250 mg liposomal glutathione to get rid of a high level of nickel I have had for over 10 years. I am tolerating this well, without the oxygen I could never tolerate it. This protocol is for a period of a maximum of 3 months when hopefully the nickel will be down to more normal levels in my cells. It is causing many problems in the oxygenation of my cells and it is also possible there is still some mercury around too although a lymphocyte test 4 years ago showed I had gone back down to a normal level.

    One exciting thing I have found since using an oxygen concentrator is that my temperature is normal around 36.7-36.9. This is unheard of for me despite thyroid and adrenal meds, I never got higher than 36.3.

    I am also taking Immunovir as an antiviral on a rotation basis and do well with it. I would be glad of an explanation regarding my intolerance of anything but a small amount of MB12 and methylfolate.

    Thanks Pam
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    I am working on this hyper-response situation right now. If you would be willing to fill out a history of symptoms questionaire I hope to get finished up by next week, in an Excel spreadsheet, send me your email by private conversation. All information will be confidential with only co-mingled statistics and patterns being talked about. What I am finding so far is that different parts of the brain are being affected by different deficiency combinations. So far in every case the extreme response indicates an extreme deficiency. I am closely coaching some folks through the micro-titrations methods and they are working out well.



    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant working in group healthcare since 1979, full time in group healthcare since 1985. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    REVISED ACTIVE B12 PROTOCOL, initial version
    Version 1.0 06/14/12
    Active b12s and methylfolate titration


    There are 4 specific active b12 deficiencies; CSF/CNS – Adb12, CSF/CNS – Mb12, body – adb12 and body. Further each CSF/CNS deficiency has two possible branches; CSF/CNS deficiency with resistance to cobalamin entering or staying in CSF and CSF/CNS deficiency without resistance to cobalamin entering or staying in the spinal fluid. As a consequence some people are hypersensitive in the CNS to minute amounts of Adb12 and/or mb12, some in normal amounts and some only at very large amounts. A hypersensitive response appears to indicate an extreme deficiency. SAM-e, methylfolate, TMG are possible surrogates for hyper response when mb12 produced no response and l-carnitine fumarate is a possible surrogate for hyper response when adb12 produced little or no response.

    At this time I can only distinguish one form of this CNS hyper responsive to a micro dose of l-carnitine fumarate (i.e. 300mcg of LCF) or adenosylb12 depending upon which is more deficient. So for now the adjustment is in the titration. Having more clearly established multiple healing flags and their apparent meaning in functional terms it is now possible to separate the stages of healing with less unpleasantness.



    1. Establish the basic vitamins, minerals, supplements including lecithin and omega3 oils. Start each. Every one of these is needed for the intended healing. If any of these basics causes a hyper response, decrease to a tolerable level and titrate, 10% per day increase from micro amounts appears to be effective and not overwhelming. For effectiveness it appears that certain effects need to be achieved, but hyper response isn’t necessary.

    2. Start a basic titration of mb12, adb12 and methylfolate.

    a. If a person has reason to suspect hyper CNS response to micro doses then the dose should start with a literal crumb of Enzymatic Therapy or Jarrow 1mg tablet, perhaps 1/16 of the tablet (62.5mcg nominal, perhaps 10mcg absorbed) under upper or lower lip to avoid washing away quickly. With either the 10mg Dibol Dibencozide or Source Naturals Dibencozide 10mg, take a tiny crumb or tiny pinch and put under upper lip if possible or lower lip. 200mcg of Methylfolate swallowed

    b. OR IF a person would expect normal responses start with a quarter of a Enzymatic Therapy 1mg or Jarrow 1mg and a small crumb or small pinch of the Dibencozide under the lip and 200mcg of Methylfolate swallowed.

    3. Adjust titration

    a. If result was too intense reduce mb12 and adb12 by 50% for next day.

    b. If no perceptible effect increase the dose of mb12 and adb12 by 50% for next day.

    c. Repeat until either a “brightness” of neurology appears, not extreme, just a start, or 1mg of sublingual mb12 is reached or a maximum of 2.5mg (1/4) of 10mg Dibencozide used sublingually

    4. When “hyper response” level is identified, titrate by crumbs, keeping below the hyper-response level. The mb12 and adb12 may need to be titrated at different paces.


    An alternative to starting with tiny amounts of mb12 and adb12 together is to start the mb12 and Metafolin together, increasing the mb12 until “neurological brightness” is achieved or 1mg is being taken. If potassium drops, usually a few days after “neurological brightening”, titrate potassium to effect and titrate methylfolate to effect. This can happen as early as 25-50mcg of mb12 if everything else needed is present. Then add in the adb12 in a similar titration. When the “brightness” doesn’t occur from mb12 and Metafolin, it will often start after adb12 and/or l-carnitine fumarate. After the adb12 is titrated, starting the LCF as a micro titration may be required.


    It is important to recognize the flags of healing; the “neurological brightening”, the drop in potassium and the need for increased methylfolate. The titration should hold level while the potassium and methylfolate are being adjusted. After this initial potassium and methylfolate adjustments, the potassium may need further adjustments when adb1 and/or LCF are added in and sometimes other missing factors. Most come to a satisfactory level of potassium between 2000 and 3000mg daily, but NOT ALL, especially if taking certain diuretics that can take potassium. Check with your doctor or pharmacist about effects of your diuretic on serum potassium. The final need for methylfolate appears to range from 800mcg to 16000mcg or more, in several steps, appearing to depend upon the presence and types of paradoxical folate deficiency present, it does not appear to be dependent in any way on total mb12 or adb12. Full methylfolate need can be required for 50mcg of mb12/adb12 daily.

    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant working in group healthcare since 1979, full time in group healthcare since 1985. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.
     
    Victronix and sregan like this.
  12. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    Fred I would like to receive a copy of the questionnaire.........I can't figure out how to PM..


     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    To send a PM (private message) click on a person's name or avatar then click on "start a converstation". When you receive a message you will see an alert at the top of the page where it says inbox
     
  14. Leon

    Leon

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    I'm fundamentally confused by the myriad information coming through on this. The long 139 post from Fredd explains a slightly different b12 protocol from this one. This one is confusing me on the issue of potassium.

    Why does potassium and methylfolate need to be added when "brightness" occurs from taking mb12 and abd12? How do you know how much to add?
    Why is there no mention of adding potassium to the mb12 and methylfolate alternative version?
    Isn't potassium already one of the basics? Does that mean hold back on how much you take initially?

    I begin to think I've got a plan of action, and then it all runs away with me! I've gone from confident to utterly unconfident about trying any of this. It all becomes just too opaque and slightly contradictory.

    Please help. I simply don't know what to do about all this information. I feel like I might climb under a rock and accept being ill!

    Leon
     
  15. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Leon,

    Welcome to the club. Be patient and keep reading and asking questions. No one has all the answers. The longer you come and look at threads and focus on what seems the most relevant to you, the more you will move more easily through the information. It's a lot to take in, and can be frustrating to sort through, but the rewards are some you won't find in an average doctor's office. One protocol won't work perfectly for everyone.

    Taking methyl B-12 or methylfolate will create a potassium deficiency in some people, not all. If that happens for you -- if you feel, upon taking mB-12 or mfolate, a racing heart, anxiety, exhaustion, muscle pains, muscle weakness, brain fog, etc. -- that may indicate you need to take potassium. We don't know why this happens for some people (like me), but it's very important to address it as a potassium deficiency can cause heart palpitations and other things that can be disturbing if not dangerous, and can cause people to stop the protocol.

    Early on we didn't know that it was a potassium deficiency. Now we do.
     
    L'engle, Stillgoing and helen1 like this.
  16. Leon

    Leon

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    Thanks, Victronix - that's very helpful. My potassium is very low. Presumably, as long as you stay within the RDA, you can pre-empt the symptoms rather than wait for them to come?

    And you're quite right about the need to bide your time. I overdid it on the research yesterday, and was exhausted. I feel like I've spent the last decade researching the notion of wellness. I just want to be well now! I think this could be a really important part of the jigsaw for me.

    Leon
     
  17. Leon

    Leon

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    This thread seems to have gone quite quiet, but I hoped I could ask a further few questions here:

    1. Is it acceptable to post up the Methylation Pathway Panel analysis here? I don't have a doctor to do this for me.

    2. What does "rebalancing" mean in terms of doses of mythylfolate and Metafolin? I only see, for example, 200mcg of methylfolate as the dose to use.

    3. I'm having real difficulty establishing the vitamins/mineral base - 100mg of Vit C (powder) seemed to give me a sore throat; 100mg of magnesium oxide seems to make my heart beat hard for about 10-15 mins (and epsom salt baths wipe me out for days) . I'm now getting a bit gun shy. Are these normal? I've a very leaky gut due to candida and seem to be reacting to many foods. I'm also willing to accept that some symptoms could be psychosomatic!

    The ingredients of the magnesium tablets are as followed:

    Magnesium Oxide, Bulking Agent (Microcrystalline Cellulose), Sodium Carboxymethylcellulose, Anti- Caking Agents (Magnesium Stearate, Magnesium Silicate), Glazing Agents (Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Glycerine, Carnauba Wax), Colour (Titanium Dioxide).

    Has anyone tried magnesium oil?

    4. I know magnesium and potassium are both electrolytes, so I wondered if titrating the dose of one could intensify the deficiency in the other?

    Thanks very much.
     

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