1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Dr. Kerr, I presume?
Clark Ellis brings us a rare interview with British researcher Dr. Jonathan Kerr who is now living in Colombia.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

New paper: Inability of ME patients to reproduce VO2 max indicates functional impairment

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Countrygirl, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

    Messages:
    2,494
    Likes:
    2,875
    Scotland
    I missed it too. :redface:
    But we get there, if we work as a team.:thumbsup:
     
    Cheshire likes this.
  2. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,870
    Likes:
    6,160
    (Small point on discussion earlier in the thread)
    It would be good if people specified which specific currency they are referring to i.e. there are US dollars, Canadian dollars, Australian dollars, etc.
     
  3. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,870
    Likes:
    6,160
    Betsy Keller presented research at the 2011 IACFS/ME conference making this very point although not just about severe patients:


     
    MeSci, Valentijn, Sean and 4 others like this.
  4. SDSue

    SDSue Southeast

    Messages:
    570
    Likes:
    1,213
    Florida
    Haven't read the whole paper yet, but by golly, if @alex3619 and @Valentijn are excited, then so am I!
     
    MeSci, Valentijn, AndyPandy and 2 others like this.
  5. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,870
    Likes:
    6,160
    James Baraniuk presented on 2-day exercise testing at the 2011 IACFS/ME conference

     
  6. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,870
    Likes:
    6,160
    I vaguely recall talk of 3 exercise tests, possibly over five days, being presented at a previous IACFS/ME conference (i.e. not 2014 nor 2011) i.e. 2007 or 2009 I think. I don't have the abstracts for the 2007 or 2009 conferences.
     
    WillowJ likes this.
  7. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Community Support Volunteer

    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes:
    3,662
    USA
    @SDSue Ditto what you said :thumbsup:
     
    Valentijn and SDSue like this.
  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,834
    Likes:
    4,593
    Cornwall, UK
    I wonder why he didn't report the CFS results?
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes:
    10,146
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    There was probably 100% overlap between the CFS and GWS groups. The symptoms are pretty much identical, hence many GWS studies will mention that the patients also fulfill all of the criteria for Fukuda CFS.

    So there might not have been any CFS patients, just CFS/GWS patients.
     
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,834
    Likes:
    4,593
    Cornwall, UK
    But he says:

     
  11. Simon

    Simon

    Messages:
    1,529
    Likes:
    4,898
    Monmouth, UK
    I'm not sure I quite buy the logic of this point. Certainly the effect of a 2-day CPET in reducing performance is striking, and the day-2 AT levels are at the levels where normal daily activities are likely to go beyond anaerobic limits. However, I don't think you can say that normal PEM will have the same effect on AT (anaerobic threshold) as cycling to exhaustion. Most patients get PEM way below pushing to total exhaustion, one reason the illness is so hard to manage. The Light's gene expression study using moderate exercise provoked PEM, but would moderate physical exercise - or even cognitive exertion provoking PEM - also cause AT to fall in the same way as a maximal cycling test? I don't think we can say from the evidence in this paper.

    I think what would be needed would be:
    - initial test to establish AT; you can't measure AT on the fly so this might need to be the full max test
    - at a later date retesting patients on a day they have PEM not brought on by a max test
    One possibility (not sure it would work) would be say, a 70% max heart-rate CPET (ie sub-maximal) to provoke PEM and measure AT, followed by a maximal CPET next day: would the results be the same on day 2 after a sub-maximal test on day 1?

    It's also worth bearing in mind that not all patients were effected - in fact, fewer than half showed a drop in day-2 AT, with the rest basically the same on both days, or even increasing slightly (most of these instead showed a drop in day-2 VO2.max). See panel A in the figure from the published paper:
    http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/12/1/104/figure/F4

    I think the 2-day CPETs give us some of the most striking results seen in studying mecfs to date and need to be pursued in much bigger studies (as Betsy Keller argues in her paper), but I also think we need to be careful in interpreting the data. Particularly as to whether 2-day CPET tests reflect what happens in 'normal' PEM brought on by more typical activities.
     
    WillowJ likes this.
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,834
    Likes:
    4,593
    Cornwall, UK
    Is that the same study? The one in @Dolphin's info says that VO2 peak/max decreased by 13.5%, whereas the published study says 13.8%, HRmax/peak decreased by 8 bpm vs. 9 bpm, and Wmax/peak by 9.4% vs. 12.5%, if I have read/understood right (brain a bit sub-optimal at moment).
     
  13. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member

    Messages:
    257
    Likes:
    797
    IACFS/ME Conference 2014 abstract

     
    WillowJ, biophile, MeSci and 5 others like this.
  14. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    Messages:
    749
    Likes:
    879
    NSW Australia
    Is that a study that has been or will be published Tom?
     
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes:
    10,146
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Since the primary author is a doctoral student, it's probably the thesis which he needs to publish to graduate. If he can't get it into a normal journal, his school probably has their own journal to publish it in.
     
    SOC, NK17 and MeSci like this.
  16. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    173
    Likes:
    466
    France
    Don't know if it's the right place to ask...

    Are PwFibromyalgia experiencing PEM?
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page