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Ergonomics and ME/CFS: Have You Hurt Yourself Without Knowing It?
Having a chronic illness like ME/CFS can make it hard to avoid problems that come from bad ergonomics. Jody Smith has learned some lessons the hard way ...
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New paper: Inability of ME patients to reproduce VO2 max indicates functional impairment

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Countrygirl, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I never know whether I should avoid chilli or not. A herbalist friend once advised avoiding chilli and black pepper for IBS-type problems, but there is stuff all over the net saying that they are GOOD for it!

    Wonder if I should risk it. I have been avoiding chilli and black pepper for years but I love them. :( :confused:
  2. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    It doesn't affect M's IBS.

    The only things he needs to avoid are processed foods and "chemically made" drinks (industrially produced beer, coke etc.)

    Go on, be a devil, have a little hot stuff, you know you want it...:devil:;)
    Ruthie24 likes this.
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Oooh, you wicked temptress. Are you sure your name's not Eve?

    (I think I will though. :D)
    Ruthie24 likes this.
  4. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Just remember, only a teeny tiny bit - you won't be used to it and a little will seem very hot indeed.
    You can have more tomorrow, your resistance will build up...
    love,
    Eve-y-sue.xxxxxx
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  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Yes, Doctor. :D
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  6. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    NK17 and alex3619 like this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Chili can cause severe pain if you have a hole in your gastric lining. Spices are often high in salicylates, which means they reduce healing of gastric ulcers by blocking eicosanoid synthesis. So they can be exacerbating factors. If they can make it worse, maybe they are causal? That was, I think, the driving factors. Similarly milk can sooth an ulcer. So the advice was to drink milk. These were both simple clinical observations that led to sweeping theoretical speculation.

    Hard evidence of pathophysiology is what makes the difference with CPET. There is no denying there is a problem. The question now is, for those patients with the energy crash, why is this a problem? What are the mechanisms?

    I love my spicy food. Indeed, I just finished a bowl of very spicy chick pea stew, which was leftover from earlier that I had put in the fridge. Its very nice cold. Chili and other spices are also reported to be very good for suppressing candida, though I do not know for sure if that is true. What is important in my opinion for spices is to not increase your intake suddenly, and if you stop eating them for a time to reintroduce them slowly. This allows, in my view, for your enzyme systems to adapt.
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  8. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Thanks, Alex - that's interesting!

    So it would be a good idea to find out which specific spices contain things such as salicylates.:thumbsup:

    I'm fairly fussy about spices - there are quite a few I really do not like - others I go completely overboard on.

    Go on, :devil: tell me that coriander/cilantro is full of salicylates - I hate the stuff, it tastes as if somebody's squirted washing-up liquid into my food.:vomit:
    I can then feel justifed in asking for it to be left out when I get a bought curry.:)
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  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    People either love cilantro or hate it. I can tolerate it in some dishes, but usually avoid it. Cilantro is regarded usually as moderate salicylate, but you eat it in higher quantities than, say, black pepper. Salicylate sensitivity is dose related, so a lower salicylate product eaten in large quantities may be worse than a high salicylate spice used sparingly. Coriander seed on the other hand is a high salicylate food, and most of my favourite spices are high salicylate too. However you need sprinkles or small amounts, you don't eat them by the pound.

    When I was on a low salicylate diet every time I came into contact with salicylates I had a massive reaction. On a moderate salicylate diet, eaten every day, I have no such vulnerability. This is not an excuse to pig out on salicylates though. Constant dose is better. Sadly I don't seem to really learn this as every now and again I give in to impulse and crank up the spice, usually to my regret. Yet it makes for interesting food .... there is some consolation. One of the things that salicylates do to me if I eat way too much is shatter my sleep cycle.

    I keep coming back to CPET and severe patients. One hypothesis I have that will not go away, it seems solid to me, is that severe patients exceed their aerobic threshold just with basic survival. I think gas analysis might show this without any exercise. After I have thought about this some more I hope to bring this to the attention of the Workwell researchers.
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  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I just posted the following as a first step:

    https://www.facebook.com/workwellfoundation

    I have been interested in CPET and ME since 2009 when I first heard about it. It seems so very obvious in hindsight, which is called a Black Swan phenomenon. I have been thinking about issues with testing severe and very severe patients. I wonder if they are mostly operating above their aerobic threshold without exercise, which is why they are bed-bound. Would it be possible to use gas analysis to show anything even without exercise? I had metabolic testing using gas analysis in about 1993 that showed my metabolism was low.
  11. beaker

    beaker CFS/ME 1986

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    {my emphasis }

    I was over my AT when they hooked me up to the machine. Was only out of bed to go to clinic or recliner. But mostly bed doing nothing.
    I wasn't the only one. In order to participate though, they made me take a few steps. They barked and yelled and screamed. I was holding on{ not suppose to } and I fell and they had to swoop a chair in under me.
    They had to have something to record for the study. Next time they started w/ the chair on the treadmill. I stood up for 2 steps or so that was it. That was more than enough. It was awful. I paid too , but I wanted the drug more.

    So the answer is yes, it can show that. But it's hell to do it.
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  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    For a study they might require a few steps, if the goal is exercise testing. However I don't think this should be necessary. I think non-exercise testing would be enough, and I think portable equipment could be taken to patient's homes to test them. Now that would be useful diagnostically. However I could be making conclusions based on ignorance ... I am not an exercise scientist.
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  13. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    I’ve come across a really interesting paper by Professor George Davey Smith Professor of Clinical Epidemiology at the University of Bristol.


    It has been written in response to “An integrated approach to understanding illness” Edited by... Peter White.

    Although it doesn’t deal with ME/CFS, it contains lots of stimulating stuff and critiques the BPS model referring to studies of peptic ulcer and ischaemic heart disease. It also puts in perspective many factors that were once thought to be direct contributors to diseases.


    http://issuu.com/maxhead/docs/bps_caution_davey_smith (it’s a scan, there are transcription errors)



    I haven’t seen any post relating to it, excuse me if it’s not the case.


    Here are some quotes I thought could be valuable (I could have quoted almost all the text as it is really of interest). (emphasis on words and light presentation are mine)


    This one reminds me of something...
    This one also sounds familiar
    This one is just for fun, as its absurdity is just astounding!!

    Last edited: May 1, 2014
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  14. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Other quotes:

    About the misinterpretation of datas:


    About the blindness certainty causes. One can bitterly sees the parallel with ME/CFS

    About psychological interventions

    Last edited: May 1, 2014
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  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    @Cheshire, this chapter of White's book (White was the editor) was one of the sources for my blogs I referred to in post 73.
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  16. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I can't work out who the authours of the quotes Cheshire put here are, but I'm a little concerned about the continued use of the expression "H. Pylon" rather than H. Pylori.

    I imagine it's a typo... ?
  17. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Sorry, didn't see it

    @peggy-sue Yes, it's a PDF made out of a scan, and I yet corrected lots of mistranscriptions, but missed this one. Gone change that!
    peggy-sue likes this.
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    also 'ben ben', which I presume should be beri beri!
    alex3619 likes this.
  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Obviously the scanner is translating "ri" as "n".
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  20. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Well I haden't seen this one either... :confused:

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