Phoenix Rising tells QMUL: release the PACE trial data
Mark Berry, Acting CEO of Phoenix Rising, presents the Board of Directors’ open letter to Queen Mary University of London (QMUL) urging them to release the PACE trial data, and hopes that other non-UK organisations will join British charities in the same request...
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:New paper 10th Nov: Brain chemistry study shows CFS and GWI as unique disorders

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Countrygirl, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. morse27

    morse27 Senior Member

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  2. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    https://gumc.georgetown.edu/news/Br...rome_and_Gulf_War_Illness_as_Unique_Disorders

    Georgetown University Medical Centre


     
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  3. morse27

    morse27 Senior Member

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    GWS and CFS / ME are not the same at all, I've been telling scientists around the world for years about differences in symptoms that do not coexist between these two forms.
     
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  4. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    I wouldn't get too excited about any papers claiming changes in "brain chemistry". Psychs can spin that anyway they want. They already have existing paradigms for all such eventualities and can easily spin their favoured treatments into the "brain chemistry" model.
     
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  5. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    "Blockade of extracellular vesicle secretion from choroid plexus cells decreased brain inflammation in a mouse model of lipopolysaccharide-induced inflammation56. Choroid plexus miRNAs may be novel drug targets to modulate acute illness behaviours, fever, and chronic pain in systemic illnesses."
    "…Choroid plexus miRNAs55 are packaged into extracellular vesicles and released into cerebrospinal fluid56,57,63,64. Downstream targets include subventricular neural stem cells, mature neurons, astrocytes, oligodendrocytes, microglia, meningeal and central immune cells56,57,63,65,66,67"

    Japanese (PET/MRI?) studies have highlighted possible activation of microglia. Maureen Hanson looked at lipopolysaccharide in her gut study [Reduced diversity and altered composition of the gut microbiome in individuals with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome]. Is this study suggesting a mechanism explaining the brain inflammation proposed in the Japanese studies (leaky choroid plexus)? I'm beginning to see why Hanson's looking at extracellular vesicles.

    What's activating the immune system (T cell clonal expansion)?

    Complex stuff --- thanks to all of those involved.
     
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  6. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I would be interested to know more
     
  7. helperofearth123

    helperofearth123 Senior Member

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    This sounds very interesting! It sounds like our microRNA diminishes after exercise when it is supposed to increase and that causes an excess of immune cells in the brain after exercise because one or more of the types of microRNA causes reduction in a type of immune cell (or it would if we had it). So it's like an autoimmune reaction in the brain triggered by exercise. That's my interpretation as a non-scientist lay-person.
     
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  8. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

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    Yeah well all sounds interesting. Still putting my money on elevated serotonin causing the problems. No suprise to me that observable changes to brain function exist. When serotonin levels rise to toxic levels hydrodgen peroxide is produced. Causes inflammation of mitochondria in thalamus among other things. If anyone wants to bleach their brain Serotonin Release Agents work really well. If you would rather not do this, stay away from those things. Prozac ect.
     
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  9. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Anyone know if they took two CSF samples from each of the participants i.e. before and after exercise (apart from non-exercise controls).

    If not then does this cause problems re control values (variance between individuals)?

    If so then does this cause problems re control values (since some of the response post exercise could be the effect of having a CSF sample taken)?
     
  10. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Yea I think I read somewhere that Baraniuk is recruiting participants for an MRI study. I suspect the problem re MRI scans to date has been lack of sensitivity.

    I think the Japanese microglia studies used a labelling compound to pick up activated microglia [using PET or something i.e. not MRI (- no labelling compounds for MRI)]. However, there have been issues re some imaging studies i.e. relating to the lack of specificity of the labelling compound.

    On the subject of microglia check out Dr. Capecchi presentation at the Community Symposium on the Molecular Basis of ME/CFS at Stanford re "role of microglia in neuropsychiatric disorders".

    Finding something using MRI would be really interesting.

    Not a scientist --- I may be wrong
     
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  11. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

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    MRI scans are good for looking at brain structure but of limited value when investigating brain function. You need a PET scan for that. I expect that if most sufferers had one it would show decreased activity of the Serotonin transporter SERT. This would provide good evidence that elevated Serotonin is what is causing symptoms. When SERT is disabled it cause Serotonin to build up. Then you get raised levels of Hydrogen Peroxide.
     
  12. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Hi Andy,
    Here's the Japanese study I was thinking of: "Neuroinflammation in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis: An ¹¹C-(R)-PK11195 PET Study". By Y Nakatomi (and others).

    Here's what the conclusions section states:
    "CONCLUSION:
    Neuroinflammation is present in widespread brain areas in CFS/ME patients and was associated with the severity of neuropsychologic symptoms. Evaluation of neuroinflammation in CFS/ME patients may be essential for understanding the core pathophysiology and for developing objective diagnostic criteria and effective medical treatments."


    I think there was talk of the study being repeated; possibly with the next generation of labelling compounds (replacements for "PK11195"). I don't recall seeing a follow up study.

    I'm struggling to understand what Baraniuk is suggesting but he refers to "brain inflammation -- lipopolysaccharide-induced inflammation" and "Choroid plexus is dysfunctional ---- provides the rationale to consider the role of the blood – cerebrospinal fluid barrier in the cognitive dysfunction of CFS".

    Hanson of course in her leaky gut study (2016) found the increased Lipopolysaccharides. So possibly we're onto leaky blood – cerebrospinal fluid barrier (Baraniuk) gives you the activated microglia (Japanese study). Microglia of course affect neurons (Dr. Capecchi presentation) i.e. would explain "the cognitive dysfunction of CFS".

    There are a number of protein studies in cerebrospinal fluid by Bergquist (and others); these studies are presumably available online. You might want to check if they found increased serotonin


     
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  13. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I know I have the problem of too much serotonin because Sumatriptan is the most effective drug that I take to get rid of severe migraines I suffer with. It does this by blocking the serotonin receptors.

    Also I am homozygous for MAO A and COMT and these are the probably reasons in my case why I have too much serotonin. On the other hand I am naturally a very happy person and rarely feel depressed!

    Pam
     
  14. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Surely this means we are back to the gut being the source of LPS and inflammation. I have been working on improving the microbiome of my gut since early September following an American Gut test showing I had very low diversity and 87% bacteroidetes.

    I have virtually no arthritic pain in my hands since doing this and have been able to stop Glucasmine/Chrondroitin which I have needed for the past 10 years. In addition the sciatica I have had in my right leg is also hugely improved, again that has been around for well over 10 years. My gut feels much more calmer and SIBO has virtually gone so hopefully I won't be producing as much LPS as previously. I did do Dr Meirleir's urine test about 7 years ago and it showed very high LPS.

    Also my brain function has improved with greater capacity for thought and I notice I can sustain typing up notes for much longer periods without making endless mistakes and getting too tired so there are good changes already. If only my walking capabilities would improve above the 30 minutes maximum that I have had for the past 17 years!

    Personally I feel we should be really happy that Ian Lipkin and his team are going to delve much deeper into the issue of ME and the gut because I am positive for a subset of us this is a huge issue with no chance of improvement until it is addressed.

    Pam
     
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  15. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Maureen Hanson is involved in a Norwegian (them again) microbiome study, starting around now; check out her presentation at the Community Symposium for details.

    Check out Christopher Armstrong's webinar (October 2016). He's proposing a non virtuous circle i.e. altered metabolism leads to altered gut bugs - supports altered metabolism ----.

    So yes this seems like a chicken egg thing. Leaky gut/altered biome -- leaky blood/cerebrospinal fluid barrier --- activated microglia --- neuroligical symptoms.

    How do we get research funded? European Commission has approx 80 billion euro Horizon 2020 science fund. Even the UK found £5 million for PACE surely they could put more into biological research.

    I've contacted a few Members of the European Parliament re issue of funding biological research; try your elected representative.
     
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  16. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

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    I've looked at many scientific papers regarding nuro inflammation none of them were about ME/CFS. In fact none of the hundreds of papers I have gone through in recent months have been about ME/CFS. Sounds mad to some I expect! The reason I took this approach was that it seemed to highly likley that what causes the symptoms has already been identified but simply not been applied to this illness. A chance conversation I had with someone about migraine is what started me off on the long journey I have been on to try to find the truth. To me it looks like many of the abnormalities found in the gut, blood brain and elsewhere have a common cause. It's a bit like when you throw a stone in a pond.The ripples spread a long way and are still there long after the stone has sunk. IMOH that stone is Serotonin. The ripples are the result of elevated levels of it.
     
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  17. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    There's a whole bunch of what you're saying that I agree with. Atul Gawande's BBC Reith lectures (available online) said that we know much in medicine, problem is we don't put systems in place to apply what we know. Take this paper, it used a technique which can detect single molecules [Quantitative polymerase chain reaction (QPCR)], to measure miRNAs. Presumably all off the shelf stuff, at a guess derived from research on Alzheimer's disease. The first search on Google for "alzheimer's blood csf barrier" turns up "Blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier permeability in Alzheimer's disease. Chalbot".

    Baraniuk has, to quote others, used ME/CFS as a control group in Gulf War disease studies; thereby he has contributes much to ME/CFS.

    I wrote to Alex Mayer, Member of the European Parliament (MEP), to ask her to ask a parliamentary question on ME/CFS. I was a bit surprised to find the question posted on the European Parliament; thanks Alex. It was the only question re ME/CFS in this Parliamentary term (2014 - 2019); there were 9 questions on Lymes disease and 5 on fibromyalgia. The headline figure for European Commission funding for science is 80 billion Euros/90 billion US dollars (Horizon 2020). I found plenty of evidence in the Commissions responses, to the questions on Lymes, of funding for the development of diagnostic tests i.e. for Lymes disease. We'll see what the European Commission says about funding ME/CFS research.

    As well as posting here maybe we should try to influence our elected representatives. Alex Mayer, is an MEP for the South East of England, I live in Northern Ireland. None of the MEPs, or members of the Westminster Parliament/local Assembly, in Northern Ireland responded to my request for a parliamentary question on ME/CFS. Try female politicians, women are predominantly affected, try unfairness - research on conditions which predominantly affect women ME/CFS//Lymes disease//fibromyalgia are all underfunded relative to other diseases. Think of the film UNREST/Jen Brea's TED Talk re possible perspectives.

    If your annoyed re PACE or something then try raising it with you elected representative via social media i.e. a public forum. When it comes to elections highlight those who've been advocates on your behalf e.g. Alex Mayer.

    In the case of Serotonin in cerebrospinal fluid try NICE (UK), European Commission funding under Horizon 2020; they both have an ideas/suggestion box (NIH?). Still makes me laugh, one response I received from the European Commission, re possible research areas (cytokines or something) was considered etc (but negative); another response was why would the Commission fund (biological) research into ME/CFS? I replied that it complied with the criteria for funding e.g. significant number of people affected (one million), impact on sufferers e.g. unable to lead a normal life and social exclusion ---; never got a reply but I should have sent it to all women MEPs.

    Maybe someone should put up a notice board on this site re ways to influence those who control research budgets.
     
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  18. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

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    Well between you and me I am up to something on the political front. Best not to put it on the net though. And I am pleased with what i have achieved so far. Cant go much further than that but I predict the biggest S**t storm in medical history. Might be this year , might be 5 years down the road. When it comes to funding for ME/CFS we all know where most of the money has gone- down the drain on CBT ect. This is going to change. But like I say what causes the illness (or should I say symptoms) has already been identified. One of the problems with modern medical research and high tech medicine is that it ignores the vast amount of info from the past. That is where the truth lies.
     
  19. morse27

    morse27 Senior Member

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    it is very easy to distinguish between these two diseases,

    I know how to do it with ease because I have the GWS and I lived with a woman suffering from CFS / ME with moderate to severe form.

    Without counting the researches that I have made for 8 years on the two diseases CFS / ME VS GWS.

    contact me in PV thank you, the GWS illness does not have it place here on this forum dedicated to ME
     
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