1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 2 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. This second article in a 2-Part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS....
Discuss the article on the Forums.

New Klimas Paper- NPY, Stress, HPA Axis and CFS

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by shannah, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    Here are the conclusions of the paper.. It is all pathophysiological - disorder is caused by complex interactions by many systems and should be studied that way....Infections could trigger NPY activity....

     
  2. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    More on Neuropeptide Y from the paper

    They covered NPY with regard to stress, SNS activity, exercise (?), depression, blood pressure and heart rate, the limbic system, autoimmune disorders...this peptide gets around....

    I don't why Nancy didn't go for those other functional measures..one reason might be the small sample size inhibited the the number of variables she could use and she was more sure of getting a positive result using what she did. I wish she had looked at the others.
     
  3. OurDayWillCome

    OurDayWillCome

    Messages:
    61
    Likes:
    0
    NPY has been noted in POTS as well.

    http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/hypertensionaha;45/3/385

    I just hope they keep looking until they can definitely separate physical stress from psychological once and for all.
     
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    My gosh Ourday - what a nice tie-in to CFS...that they missed...a shame. I wonder if they can link mast cell degranulation to complement findings in exercise......I'm on the skinny branches here...:)
     
  5. OurDayWillCome

    OurDayWillCome

    Messages:
    61
    Likes:
    0
    Good question, but I have no idea. Now will go looking. I do know my Tryptase (a marker for mast cell burden) is elevated.
     
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    Theorharides proposed mast cell degranulation is a factor in CFS.....NPY is a potent mast cell degranulator

    http://www.cfids-cab.org/rc/Theoharides.pdf

    How interesting that NPY mediates mast cell degranulation in ischemia - which could be occurring, I would think, given the low blood volume state in CFS (?)

    Here's the complement connection:

    I don't know if they trigger mast cell degranulation, though...Yes it does

     
  7. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes:
    152
    Essex, UK
    But because that is currently impossible, and 'they' mostly won't accept that 'stress' explanations are flawed in both methodology and theory with regard to many illnesses, but ME/CFS in particular, people are likely to be waiting a very long time- possibly will die waiting.
     
  8. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes:
    152
    Essex, UK
    But even looking at this nice little bit of 'pathophysiologico-speak' it is still all related to notions of stress and negative thinking. This confounds the whole project and places it in the context of psychogenic explanations.
     
  9. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    OKay here we go - a theory

    Exercise induces both abnormally high levels of both NPY and C4. Both of these substances degranulate mast cells triggering blood vessel contraction and ischemia (low blood flows causing high levels of oxidative stress) and, in some patients, hypotension - lowered blood pressure (a bit at odds with the blood vessel contraction or maybe not -blood vessels should contract in response to reduced blood pressure.)
     
  10. OurDayWillCome

    OurDayWillCome

    Messages:
    61
    Likes:
    0
    Well, you beat me to the connection.


    Mast cells release gobs of Histamine, which dilates blood vessels. I believe the working hypothesis in this group of POTS patients is that the Histamine triggers the release of Norepinephrine to combat the Histamine, which triggers the release of Histamine, and on and on. Histamine can cause many problems.

    Angela .... I know that some things cannot be answered at this point. But I still hope.
     
  11. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes:
    152
    Essex, UK
    But in the meantime, a fundamentally flawed edifice is being propagated while we wait and hope. This has meant funds for biological research into ME/CFS are diverted towards extremely flawed projects that set back progress for this community further and further. So I might hope as much as you, but I have to add my voice to those who bring to public attention the fallacies in this type of thinking, because while people like Nancy Klimas do not appear to understand the problems of the 'science' being done here, things can only get worse for those people waiting, as science regresses even further under the prevailing ideology of fallacious psychogenic explanations.
     
  12. OurDayWillCome

    OurDayWillCome

    Messages:
    61
    Likes:
    0
    ???? I am not a proponent for Klimas or the type of research that was presented.
     
  13. aruschima

    aruschima I know nothing

    Messages:
    113
    Likes:
    0
    Global
    I agree, once more diverting attention away from important biomedical research . It could have been a step further in validating the disease, if the interpretation would have been directed and had highlighted the very serious issues association to Hypothalamus/ brain abnormalities/ white/grey matter reduction and so forth or pointed out the possible link to cancers (Leukemia).
    I am very disappointed about Nancy and can not understand that she allowed such a fallacy, especially at this point of time.
     
  14. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes:
    152
    Essex, UK
    I understand. But because your comment was directed at me it seemed to close off my own discussion slightly (not your intent, I'm sure) which is why I felt the need to explain why just 'hoping' on this issue in particular is not something I personally can do.
     
  15. lancelot

    lancelot Senior Member

    Messages:
    324
    Likes:
    2
    southern california
    I'm very surprised to see this kind of research from Dr Klimas. How does one correlate any biomarker for CFS with stress, negative mood, general health, depression and cognitive function??? Why can't she correlate it with severe fatigue(mental and physical), unrefreshing sleep, sleep disturbance(insomnia or hypersomnia), OI/POTS/NMH, pain, sickness/nausea/malaise, PEM/DPEM or walking distance instead of purely mental symptoms that are not the key nor main symptoms of CFS/ME?

    If anyone has heard Dr Klimas speak at the CFSAC or seen her other good CFS research, we must give her the benefit( in the big picture) of the doubt regardless of how this study looks.
     
  16. OurDayWillCome

    OurDayWillCome

    Messages:
    61
    Likes:
    0
    Angela...." just 'hoping' ".

    I don't know how that can be concluded by what I write, or don't write, on this thread.

    Nope, not my intention at all.
     
  17. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes:
    2,714
    WA, USA
    The NPY connection to the blood vein stuff and epilepsy and anorexia (as in just not feeling hungry like in many medical diseases) is very interesting and could be pertinent.

    It's very unfortunate that this study was done in this context and in this manner (particularly the Background).

    I did hear back from Dr. Klimas who was kind and replied to my somewhat grumpy email, and she noted that she was not the lead author so had not written the manuscript, and that some of the others use "psychology speak" (although she doesn't feel they are coming at it from a psychogenic or Wessely school standpoint), but that no subgroup is being left behind, and to please take her work in the larger context where this disease is being studied from all angles with the other pathologies being covered as well.

    This last point is what lancelot just said, and it's a good point because Klimas generally does wonderful work and speaks up for us all the time.

    But it doesn't take away the fact that some aspects of this study come pretty close to giving aid and comfort to, and shockingly echoing, the psychobabble crowd. Even though that was, as I suspected, completely unintended. I'm a bit discouraged that this happened and there isn't a move to revise the Background to include other pathologies and actually describe this disease.

    I have not heard back from Fletcher, but I am still hoping she will write back.
     
  18. FunkOdyssey

    FunkOdyssey Senior Member

    Messages:
    143
    Likes:
    10
    Man this thread is ridiculous, do you want to learn more about this disease or do you want to selectively hear only what supports your agenda? Its new data and it's interesting, take it for what it's worth. Just because CFS is a physiological disorder with infectious causes doesn't mean there isn't ALSO mental stuff going on (as a secondary consequence) that may be correlated with various biomarkers. For crying out loud.
     
  19. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes:
    2,714
    WA, USA
    can anyone tell me if there is any other use for the term "psychoneuroimmunology" than the study of psychogenic and/or psychosomatic illness?
     
  20. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes:
    2,714
    WA, USA
    we want to learn about this disease and we want this disease to be taken seriously. At the moment and for the past 25 years and counting (USA) and much longer (UK), the theory that stress and maladaptive coping causes this disease has prevented this disease and therefore any patient labelled with CFS (correctly or misdiagnosed, doesn't matter) from being taken seriously.

    Meaning the patients are ridiculed and fail to get medical care for this condition or any other condition they may happen to have, especially if the other condition has symptom overlap (asthma, for instance). In some cases the patient abuse is even much more serious than this. Patients also have trouble getting social support or disability aids.

    Perception of the disease also influences whether any researchers are interested in the disease and how much funding is available (and whether even the small amount of funds will actually be spent productively or whether it will be frittered away and diverted to other things).

    How a disease is percieved is very serious, because the consequenses to the patients are very serious.

    The question isn't whether there may be secondary stress (there is, just the same as in any other chronic debilitating disease).

    The question is: did the paper do a good job of explaining what ME/CFS is (because that explanation is so badly needed) or what they meant by the terms they used? The Discussion was pretty good but the Background was dismal. Since the background comes right at the beginning, this is a problem. Also since the buzzword "maladaptive coping" was used without explaining what the authors meant (they evidently didn't mean the usual; Klimas interpreted it to mean "pushing through"), that's a very serious problem because it won't be interpreted in this way.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page