New, Inexpensive CBS Ammonia Fix

[aaron_c]

Someone post under another topic that Ray Peat says serotonin has the same effect as ammonia.

Did they say in what way? They both can cause diarrhea.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Did they say in what way? They both can cause diarrhea.

Nothing ever gives me diarrhea
Aaron, please read and comment it
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/anyone-tried-lithium.36322/#post-575580

 

[kel88]

Yes i also think its very intresting!
Only problem i get very worse neuropathy while using B6 ( P5P)
Only use 60mg , but when i dont take it i got soooo worse depression and diarrhea and parkinson - symptoms i think because low BH4 low dopamin low serotonin nothing works!
And B6 makes from glutamate GABA as you can read! I found also on the internet that B6 is also a problem in parkinsons and also alzheimer!

When you got high homocystiene because of a CBS mutation they cure it in our country with high ab6. So it has something to do with it!

I only get neuropathy from b6 with the combi high sulfur/thiol food . So its also stimulate a enzym that i dont whant him to stimulate haha...
But dont know how to deal with that! Because i reed you NEED sulfur! Strange thing is, i dont react to meat only to high sulfur/thiol!

Its such difficult ...

But as we reed we NEED B6. it ls just as important as B12.

 

[Valentijn]

When you got high homocystiene because of a CBS mutation they cure it in our country with high ab6. So it has something to do with it!

B6 increases the effectiveness of the enzyme created by the CBS gene. Then homocysteine can be more effectively disposed of into the transsulfuration pathway. It definitely is a good thing to do, especially if homocysteine is too high.

But Yasko freaks out about it when CBS might be slightly up-regulated, and that's why she reports SNPs as being "+/+" when people actually have the better, faster version. So people get worried about being +/+ when it's actually a good thing, and then get sucked into some complicated protocol which actually has nothing to do with their SNPs.

 

[Gondwanaland]

So people get worried about being +/+

Coincidentally people also get terrible symptoms from it So it is worthwhile worrying about it.

 

[Valentijn]

Coincidentally people also get terrible symptoms from it So it is worthwhile worrying about it.

No, the two aren't related. Some people have those symptoms, and a LOT of people have +/+ for some CBS SNP. But those don't have anything to do with each other.

 

[Gondwanaland]

No, the two aren't related. Some people have those symptoms, and a LOT of people have +/+ for some CBS SNP. But those don't have anything to do with each other.

I think it might be depleting something else down the road. I find it really intriguing that the +/+CBS folks all have the same problems.

 

[Valentijn]

I think it might be depleting something else down the road. I find it really intriguing that the +/+CBS folks all have the same problems.

They don't all have the same problems. Many explicitly say they don't have the problems. And some -/- have the same problems.

10% of Europeans are +/+ for C669T. Nearly 50% are +/-. Europeans have similar rates for A360A, though that gets up to 40% +/+ in Asian populations. Do you really think 10% of Europeans have a supposedly serious CBS problem? Or 40% of Asians? Or the 60-90% who are +/-?

And then there's the research. It doesn't show any problem associated with the +/+ versions of these SNPs. In fact, it shows some mild but statistically significant association with serious health problems for people who are -/-.

There is no proof at all of an association between these CBS SNPs and these symptoms. While CBS might be a possible culprit, so is alien abduction. These are two completely separate issues which someone has randomly decided to link together, in the process of marketing a product to cure the supposed problem.

 

[kel88]

Thanks @Valentijn for youre inpute i really appriciate it.
I also think B6 is most important! Its so ( toevallig , dont know the word in Englisch) dat diabetes , alzheimer, parkinson ar al low in B6. Also in our country i reed at MSweb.nl and site where people have for example thyroid problems they al have elevated b6 in blood/serum! But i know for sure ots the same story as with b12. Good in blood but not in body!

I found this link:

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/cbs.html

Valentine has right it is very common.
BUT everybody said that the CBS A360 is not a problem but in this link you can reed that the TT homozygous ( what i have) is a problem and upregulation! It produce more thiosulfite ( H2S).
And i think that why everytime when i use B6 i gut sooooo mich nerve pain/neuropathy and i feel toxic!

So what can we do about that? How can we reduce thiosulfite ( epsom salt bath to make from sulfite sulfate???)
And do any of you guys know a CBS inhibitor! I really really would love to try to reduce it! Look of that i work!
How can hou reduce h2S?

 

[kel88]

Sorry much spelling faults ( iphone) sorry!

 

[Valentijn]

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/cbs.html

Valentine has right it is very common.
BUT everybody said that the CBS A360 is not a problem but in this link you can reed that the TT homozygous ( what i have) is a problem and upregulation!

It increases homocysteine by 2.7% at most - and other studies show no increase at all.

Elevated urinary thiosulfite is seen in children with Down's Syndrome. They have three copies of the entire gene (and a lot of other genes) - it has nothing to do with any single SNP on CBS, and certainly not the Yasko SNPs.

And as the paper concludes, "... there is no support that CBS upregulation can have any negative effects."

 

[kel88]

Yes youre right BUTthere i a connection! When i use high dose B6, i got much neuropathy BUT ONLY when i eat thiols ( sulfur).

When i follow strickt the sulfur/thiol free dieet then i can take high dose B6 without neuropathy.

So there i a connection! The B6 speed up my already high(er) CBS enzym en produce more H2S i think..

Do you know something that you can take to reduce h2s that i can try?

 

[shoponl]

Re BH4, it's a central player in Martin Pall's theory/diagram. If the ammonia/peroxynitrite is fixed, the BH4 gets fixed. If you can, try to listen to the first part of his lecture...After finally stopping the vid and drawing the diagram myself, then following along, It began to make sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...yer_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=6A7r1gemjto

Hi ahmo,

Thanks for posting the link to the video.

In case anyone else is curious about the video, but doesn't want to spend 2 hours watching it, I wrote a list of waypoints. I also posted the list in youtube under the video comments.

start......Intro to ideas and cycles
20:00...Downregulating cycle to reverse disease
25.38...Brief mention of systemic BH4 depletion
27:00...tendency for doctors to dismiss problems as psychological
29:40...treating cause rather than symptoms
30:45...34 mechanisms make up the NO/ONOO cycle, looking at heart disease
42.30...discussion of specific illnesses and how they relate to cycle

47:00...genetic basis of chronic fatigue (cortisol, ACE/angiotensin, inflammation, mitochondrial, superoxide)
50.30...testing his theory against new data (including BH4 depletion)
55.17...low BH4 in CFS, raised by sauna therapy
55.38...discusses GTPCH1 (i.e. GCH1), HSP90 protein and heat, sauna therapy
59.00...thalamus and cortisol and exercise
1.00.00...Saurez study on CFS and dramatic nitric oxide rise on exercise (rest!)

1.02.00...MCS pathways of action (pesticides, mercury), NMDA receptors
1.06.00...discussion of MCS, MSG sensitivity, CCK-B gene, dextromethorphan
1.09.30...Meggs study on inflammation, TRPV1 and TRPA1 receptors in MCS
1.11.00...Millqvist study on capsaicin, cough results in MCS
1.17.00...MCS genes (PON1 CYP2D6 NAT2 GSTM1 GSTT1 GSTP1 UGT1A1)
1.26.00...studies: Binkley's CCK-B gene, Cui's SOD-2 (superoxide dismutase)

1.35.00...discussion of Hetherington and Battershill, and rebuttal of criticisms

1.49.00...Electromagnetic hypersensitivity, microwaves, low-energy EMF fields
1.50.00...voltage-gated calcium channels; EMF opens cellular calcium channels
1.51.00...Released calcium causes effects; similarities between Ca & NDMA

1.54.00...Therapy ideas: 5-MTHF (methyfolate) as peroxynitrite scavenger
1.55.17...more on 5-MTHF; it increases methylation and lowers peroxynitrite
1.56.00...possible difficulty in tolerating high doses of 5-MTHF
1.58.00...high dose vitamin C helps 5-MTHF; 1 - 2.5g vit C will reduce ONOO
2.01.00...high vit C (1 - 2g) raises BH4 by converting BH3 back into BH4
2.02.00...IV vit C tried by some
2.03.10...hydrogen peroxide produced by IV vit C, may be anticancer in theory
2.04.00...H2O2 induces NRF2; as does zinc, curcumin, tocepherols (avoid alpha-tocepherol), silymarin, ellagic acid, green tea
2.06.00...sauna/heat's main benefit may not be "detox" but by raising BH4
2.07.20...resveratrol raises SIRT1, which then raises BH4 and lowers superoxide, ONOO, and others
2.09.00...SIRT1 is NAD-dependent, but NAD is often low in NO/ONOO problem 2.09.14...take resveratrol with nicotinic acid (not nicotinamide) to raise NAD (Question: doesn't nicotinic acid damage liver??)
2.11.00...use Mg-malate; magnesium deficiency increases NO/ONOO disease
2.13.00...omega-3 fatty acids; fish oil DHA and EPA;
2.14.00...cardiolipin, super oxide problem, heart failure
2.15.00...phosphlipids, phosphatidyl serine may go directly into mitochondria
2.16.00...L-carnitine and acetyl-l-carnitine help heart but may be mixed blessing
2.16.00...glutamate?
2.18.00...carotenoids useful, especially lycopene (tomatoes); activates NRF2
2:19.00...ending
2.20.00... addendum slides on carotenoids, phenolic and thiol antioxidants
2.20.12...addendum slide on sauna therapy, BH4, and GTPCH-1 (GCH1)
2.20.17...addendum slide on glutathione, riboflavin, niacin, NADPH; using high-dose thiamine to increase NADPH via the pentose phosphate shunt
2.20.24...addendum slide on vitamin E (tocopherols and tocotrienols); 12-lipoxygenase enzyme
2.20.31...addendum slide on high-dose B12. HyroxyB12 is a NO scavenger.

 

[ahmo]

@shoponl This is so !! I was just looking at my scribbled notes a few hours ago, thinking it's time to watch again. You've done a great thing here! BTW, Pall's website address is misdirecting. The yahoo forum list owner knows it's not working, is awaiting Marty's return form somewhere to fix it. Thanks so much for this list.

 

[ppodhajski]

Someone post under another topic that Ray Peat says serotonin has the same effect as ammonia. I thnik both B2 and B6 increase serotonin, isn't that right?

Ammonia and serotonin are two completely different looking molecules. I see that Ammonia effects serotonin levels but no evidence it acts in the same way as serotonin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1693945

It does looks like ammonia promotes glutamate release and that can be damaging.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v39/n4/abs/npp2013306a.html

Just thinking out loud that high ammonia might be a sign of disease but not a cause of disease.

P5P is a cofactor for 5HTD so it might help create more serotonin if you have enough of the precursors. B2(FMN) however will speed up MAO and degrade serotonin.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Just thinking out loud that high ammonia might be a sign of disease but not a cause of disease.

Definetly. But I believe the approach here is as a consequence from wrong supplementation...

 

[Bansaw]

Has anyone used this new product "Ammonia Scavenger" by Professional Health Products?
You have to buy it through your physician. It seems like its more expensive that it should be ($40). Amino acids and yucca with B6 in a DRCap. Any comments?
Details below:

 

[drew]

Can't hi maize resistant starch be used instead of potato starch to increase butyrate?

 

[South]

@aaron_c A question, and please assume I have complete brain fog (I do) and need it dumbed way down.

For someone who wants to guess how malic acid supplements might affect their serotonin or nitric oxide levels, if that person didn't have any genetic test results, what would be some of the most likely results?

I won't ask about ammonia or other effects

 

[aaron_c]

Hi @South

I don't know of any relationship between malic acid and serotonin (not to say that there isn't one). Hmm...if malic acid works how I said it did to remove ammonia, it might reduce nitric oxide...but it's hard to tell. If the first and last stops on the line are ammonia and urea, then nitric oxide gets on a few stops in, and arginine is the second-to-last stop...so it might not have any net effect.

You know, I have moved on from malic acid. Long story short, I think the whole "ammonia toxicity" thing is actually vitamin D deficiency causing high levels of asymmetric dimethyl arginine. There is a lot more to say both on how this might be and how we can take vitamin D without becoming quite tired and brain fogged--and I am not sure I have the solution yet to the last bit. After misfiring about why vitamin D would make us tired, I have become somewhat gun-shy, so I am waiting for better health before I try to present my thinking.

I'm sorry this maybe wasn't as helpful as you might have hoped South. Best of luck.

PS We discuss fatigue issues stemming from Vitamin D in the Vitamin D Sensitivity thread. I think I know what was going on at this point, but I haven't written about it yet, and some of my earlier assertions (like copper being helpful) ended up not working out. So I don't know how helpful the thread will be just yet. Here's hoping I can post soon.