New, Inexpensive CBS Ammonia Fix

[NotThisGuy]

Hello BH4 experts,
I suspect I'm pretty much depleted in BH4. Maybe due supplementing too much Arginine, maybe something else.
I noticed whenever I get sunlight my symptoms (mast cells, POTS, Depression etc.) greatly reduce.

Now I'm wondering if the sunlight only forces to use my depleted BH4 stores.
I've read here that NO synthase doesn't use up BH4.
But what about sun light?

I read your post @aaron_c about UV-B, but other sources claim that UVB is depleting BH4. Do you have any idea why?
Sorry if you have answered this already

 

[aaron_c]

Hi @NotThisGuy

I'm glad sunlight is helping you.

other sources claim that UVB is depleting BH4

What other sources? I've never heard this and I'd be curious to read about this.

In any case I've never heard of BH4 being "stored" the way that calcium is stored in bones or vitamin D can be in the liver, so my guess is that if you are feeling better you don't need to worry. I've been using a UV-B light for over half a year now and I haven't noticed any drop in efficacy.

 

[NotThisGuy]

@aaron_c

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24773158
This is the only study claiming UV decreases BH4.

The problem is that in the past lot of things helped, but now I wish I've never taken them that long......
For 2 years now I'm only facing one life threatening symptom after another and I'm always busy to find a solution... As soon as I seem to find one it stops working after a while and I'm left worse than before....

I'm currently thinking about trying Yaskos ammona RNA. Any experience with it? not very much Info on this here.
Since I dont tolerate supplements or medication or herbs or anything at all, it might be my chance..

Do you have any experience with NADH (I think you mentioned you bought it but didn't try it yet)?

I'm desperate for that precious dopamine....

 

[aaron_c]

Thanks @NotThisGuy

I think it's honestly past my pay-grade, at least for now. But I would question whether UV radiation is a major driver of BH4 or biopterin oxidation, or whether it's a minor one. The bigger issue may be more "how much ONOO gets produced by the body, specifically by NOS?"

Yasko's ammonia RNA probably won't hurt (except in your wallet). But even on her website I seem to recall lukewarm reviews of the RNAs. I tried them initially, found they didn't help, and haven't taken them since.

I'm a big fan of methylation stuff, though. It sounds like you are reading Yasko, so you've probably tried that already, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. If you want to discuss that further, however, we should probably do so in another thread.

 

[aaron_c]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24773158

I see that the study used 350 nm wavelength light. That's UV-a, not UV-b, although obviously if you are in the sun you will get both.

 

[NotThisGuy]

I didnt really ever read yasko.
I started with Freddd protocol but failed big time. I think right know I'm in some kind of methyltrap or mitochondrial trap.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ce-to-supplements-suicidal.52641/#post-873258

You are very welcome to post any suggestions.

Do you have any experience with NADH for BH4?

 

[aaron_c]

I'm not sure how NADH would help with BH4...at least not directly. What were you thinking?

I have tried NADH. It has worked decently at times, and other times it added too much energy giving me insomnia...and maybe there was a time when it didn't do much. In any case, it's far from the first supplement on my list.

 

[aaron_c]

Oh...I read your post the other day, I'm sorry you're so sick, and I'm sorry you can't find better medical help--you shouldn't have to do this yourself @NotThisGuy . Do you have naturopaths that specialize in environmental medicine in your country? Sometimes a naturopath will be willing to listen where doctors don't, but it all depends on the physician.

I will say that if you have mercury poisoning then you shouldn't take methylfolate, ALA, or NAC, as they can chelate mercury and transport it into your brain, which can cause (among other things) a very serious depression.

 

[NotThisGuy]

@aaron_c
I read that NADH is needed to produce and recycle BH4.

I tried a few naturopaths and alternative Dr. but they all dont listen.
Now I dont really have the money left to pay 120€ for an appointment where they just tell me I have do take this and that (even though I dont tolerate it).

I thought ALA is supposed to get mercury out of the brain?

 

[NotThisGuy]

@aaron_c
Why does B6 actually increase ammonia?
Is it because glutamine gets converted into glutamic acid and releases one ammonia group?

https://neuroendoimmune.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/gaba-glutamate-synthesis.png

Could one bypass this effect by supplementing glutamic acid with b6?

 

[aaron_c]

Why does B6 actually increase ammonia?

The short answer is that I do not know exactly why B6 appears to increase "ammonia" symptoms. In addition, I have come to think that ammonia may have little or nothing to do with that symptom set.

Glutamic acid becomes glutamate in neutral solutions--which I'm guessing includes the brain. In the brain glutamate is neurotoxic in excess, and it's a particular problem for us. In addition to this, much of the benefit of supplementing glutamine is that ATP is generated when ammonia is separated. I would not suggest supplementing with glutamic acid.

 

[aaron_c]

I thought ALA is supposed to get mercury out of the brain?

Yes, but it also can put it there. Cutler has very specific ideas about how ALA should be used to chelate mercury and it involves taking a dose every 4 hours (yes, in the middle of the night). If you aren't doing this then Cutler says that some of what gets chelated will be deposited somewhere in the body rather than excreted. Some mercury that wasn't in the brain before might get deposited there.

 

[NotThisGuy]

The short answer is that I do not know exactly why B6 appears to increase "ammonia" symptoms. In addition, I have come to think that ammonia may have little or nothing to do with that symptom set.

Glutamic acid becomes glutamate in neutral solutions--which I'm guessing includes the brain. In the brain glutamate is neurotoxic in excess, and it's a particular problem for us. In addition to this, much of the benefit of supplementing glutamine is that ATP is generated when ammonia is separated. I would not suggest supplementing with glutamic acid.

Ok, so its not ammonia. Any idea what it might be? Sorry I already read this thread but my brain forgot almost everything....

Do you have heavy metal toxcity btw?
I'm wondering if my FIR pointed to my liver disaster wasn't actually the red light but the increased BH4 detox some people report with heavy metal toxcity.

 

[denman]

Interesting ...... I can't take any B6 due to the severe reaction and my gut feeling tells me its something to do with my ammonia load.Also, sunlight makes me tired so there is a connection here.

 

[denman]

Any info on AKA or OKG helping with ammonia.It makes some sense in my opinion.Maybe it's time for another trial and error.

alpha ketoglutaric acid /ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate

 

[denman]

OKG is a combination of the amino acid ornithine and alpha-ketoglutarate (AKG) which is a precursor of the amino acid Glutamine and also a contributor to the Krebs cycle responsible for breaking down carbohydrates into energy in the body.

It regulates L-Glutamine levels which is an essential source of cellular fuel to drive metabolic processes and for which the body is ordinarily forced to break down muscle. But the AKG component of OKG curbs this "auto-cannibalism" by combining with the toxic by-product ammonia produced during intense workouts to restore glutamine and hence energy levels back to normal, preventing the attack on lean muscle mass and the accumulation of ammonia. Such ammonia scavenging improves detoxification which ordinarily is highly toxic to the brain causing brain fog and impaired cognition as seen in high protein diets.

By encouraging the excretion of ammonia in the form of urea, OKG prevents the build up of lactic acid known to accumulate with ammonia and which causes muscle fatigue, soreness and poor stamina.


OKG has advantages over ordinary glutamine supplementation in those treating alcoholism, leaky gut syndrome, heavy metal toxicity and allergic states where ammonia accumulation and brain fog is a factor.1 Glutamine taken alone can promote restlessness and agitation over time rather like a caffeine buzz. But more seriously under certain conditions the intestines can boil up Glutamine into glutamate and during this breakdown toxic ammonia can be released into the bloodstream. OKG with its alpha keto-glutarate portion is a safer option because the level of glutamine it is made into is limited by the amount of excess ammonia being dumped by the body. Any unwanted ammonia is promptly escorted out of the body in the form of urea that can be excreted by the kidneys. In this way brain fog-inducing ammonia can be cleared improving mental clarity...................

 

[Peyt]

OKG is a combination of the amino acid ornithine and alpha-ketoglutarate (AKG) which is a precursor of the amino acid Glutamine and also a contributor to the Krebs cycle responsible for breaking down carbohydrates into energy in the body.

It regulates L-Glutamine levels which is an essential source of cellular fuel to drive metabolic processes and for which the body is ordinarily forced to break down muscle. But the AKG component of OKG curbs this "auto-cannibalism" by combining with the toxic by-product ammonia produced during intense workouts to restore glutamine and hence energy levels back to normal, preventing the attack on lean muscle mass and the accumulation of ammonia. Such ammonia scavenging improves detoxification which ordinarily is highly toxic to the brain causing brain fog and impaired cognition as seen in high protein diets.

By encouraging the excretion of ammonia in the form of urea, OKG prevents the build up of lactic acid known to accumulate with ammonia and which causes muscle fatigue, soreness and poor stamina.


OKG has advantages over ordinary glutamine supplementation in those treating alcoholism, leaky gut syndrome, heavy metal toxicity and allergic states where ammonia accumulation and brain fog is a factor.1 Glutamine taken alone can promote restlessness and agitation over time rather like a caffeine buzz. But more seriously under certain conditions the intestines can boil up Glutamine into glutamate and during this breakdown toxic ammonia can be released into the bloodstream. OKG with its alpha keto-glutarate portion is a safer option because the level of glutamine it is made into is limited by the amount of excess ammonia being dumped by the body. Any unwanted ammonia is promptly escorted out of the body in the form of urea that can be excreted by the kidneys. In this way brain fog-inducing ammonia can be cleared improving mental clarity...................

Hi denman,
Thanks for this post,
So is there any advantages of using OKG over AKG?
If alpha keto-glutarate is the part that is used for this purpose, wouldn't it be better to just use that which does not have the Ornithine which in some people could flare up the herpes virus (if they have it) ?

 

[calexis6666]

Hi @Lance S

First off, I will just repeat that I am a (somewhat) educated amateur. But it is pretty cool what we can learn given enough time, motivation, and health!

Here is an approximation of my supplement regimen.

5-htp100mg
Lithium (Orotate)35mg
5-MTHF6mg
Vitamin B-1 (actually Benfotiamine)50mg
Vitamin B-3 (Niacinamide)40mg
Vitamin B-12 (methylcobalamin)6mg
Vitamin B-12 (hydroxycobalamin)2mg
Vitamin B-12 (adenosylcobalamin)6mg
Vitamin C1500mg
Vitamin C0.6g
Vitamin D5000iu
Vitamin E (succinate)400iu
Vitamin K14000mcg
Vitamin K2-4mcg
Vitamin K2-7mcg
Animal Pancreas425mg
Animal Duodenum
Intrinsic Factor
Animal Kidney435mg
Animal Adrenal160mg
Lactoferrin350mg
Co-Q 1050mg
Grape Seed Extract100mg
Policosanol (membrane fluidity)10mg
NADH7.5mg
Pine Bark Extract (or Pycnogenol)100mg
Idebenone150mg
Selenium400mg

Manganese (arginate)0

magnesium (liposomal)1-6 (?)g
Molybdenum (amino acid chelate)1500mcg
Fish Oil1t
GAGs150mg
Sodium-Butyrate1.8g
Carnitine-Fumarate4275mg
Choline CDP500mg
GABA0.819672131147541g
Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin-5-phosphate)0.05g
Vitamin B-5 (d-calcium pantothenate)0.5g
Vitamin B-6 (p-5-p)8 mg
Vitamin B-7 (Biotin)5000mcg
Inositol hexaphosphate (IP6)0.025g
Acetyl-L-Carnitine1 g
Betaine HCl (TMG)0.5g
DMG HCl1g
Zinc Picolinate0.275g
L-Glutamine1 g
Vitamin B-8 (Phosphatidyl Inositol aka Inositol)0.025g
Phosphatidylserine200mg
Choline (bitartrate)0mg
Phosphatidylcholine0T
Yucca Root Powder3 tablespoons
Digestive Enzymes7pills
Psillium Husks3T
ATP20mg
Acai2T
Animal Thymus1mg
Animal Spleen0
Animal Lymph0
Animal Placenta0
Animal Parotid0
Animal Bone Marrow0
Nucleotides300mg
Sunflower Lecithin40 g
BH425mg

Uridine Monophosphate10-50 ?mg
Licorice Rootin tea with meals


Glucosamine HCl1.5 pills
Milk Thistle Extract150+ mg

I know, it is a lot. B6 I get entirely from kombucha at this point, but that isn't a general recommendation, just what seems to work for me right now. I take my malic acid in a liposomal form, so the actual malic acid content is very low...maybe 10 mg? I am not sure. Liposomal stuff tends to be more potent, but this seems more than the increase in potency one might get with, say, vitamin c.

Although (regular) malic acid has been used for fibromyalgia, I think you are the first person on this thread to say that regular malic acid is working for your ammonia issues--and it seems like we are only guessing that it helped with ammonia, right?

I googled methylfolate and blood pressure, and found a post by Freddd suggesting that a few days after taking both methylfolate and methylcobalamin, the body's need for potassium increases somewhat dramatically, and that insufficient potassium can cause high blood pressure. Too much or too little potassium can kill you, so I would be careful with adding a bunch of potassium. I actually have very little experience with potassium dosing, but Freddd would know more.

Hmm. I cannot find a way that low BH4 would cause "fight or flight," but heartfixer has a good bit on sulfates and sulfites. Apparently sulfates (the less toxic variety) can increase your adrenaline and cortisol. Perhaps your high protein diet is contributing to high sulfates, and the whole thing explodes when you take b6 as that is necessary for CBS to function?

EDIT: I realized this theory doesn't explain why the malic acid would help bring you down from the fight of flight. So to state the obvious, it would seem that either 1) You are right, and BH4 deficiency causes the fight or flight in some way we do not know; 2) I am right, and sulfates are pumping you full of adrenaline, and malic acid helps alleviate this somehow; 3) My theory might also pan out if the malic acid-adrenaline connection was just a coincidence. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Pretty cool thing to chew on, although I am sure it doesn't feel so hot to go through. END EDIT

Here is Heartfixer on sulfites and sulfates:



Have you considered taking a multi-b vitamin? I admit, I am not sure how they might all fit with your picture, but I imagine taking only some b vitamins could easily cause some kind of imbalance.

One final question: Do you have chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia? My whole reasoning about malic acid only holds for people experiencing mitochondrial dysfunction as seen in CFS/FM and maybe autism.

Best of luck, Lance!

Aaron C

Did you wait to take your Betaine TMG after you cleared your Sulfur? What company do you use for your panceas etc extracts? Thanks!

 

[calexis6666]

Also, did you wait until your sulfur cleared until you took the PC? I read that PC is not good if you are Sulfur intolerant.

 

[aaron_c]

Hi Calexis,

I can't recall whether I started molybdenum or TMG first, I started them around the same time. I don't take either now, and I consider the dose of molybdenum I was taking to be at least somewhat dangerous in retrospect. I think I appeared to need so much because I was a bit boron deficient; when I started taking boron I suddenly needed a lot less molybdenum (and indeed eventually developed insomnia if I took any molybdenum at all).

In any case I'm not sure why TMG or phosphatidylcholine would be particularly bad for someone who wasn't processing sulfites well...any idea what the thinking behind that was?

I'm not sure where I got my pancreas extracts...probably seroyal (I still have a student account that gives me a discount). Unfortunately their parent company, Genestra, was just bought by Nestle so I personally wouldn't buy anything from them anymore.

I should probably say that I hit a wall a few years back with the methylation supplements and I've been spending my time lately looking into mycotoxin disease paradigms. I no longer take any of the glandular extracts, molybdenum, methylfolate, or methylcobalamin either because other things I've started seem to have superseded my need for them or because I found I they weren't benefitting me in the first place. I do still take phosphatidylcholine, which I continue to depend on so I can focus a little bit.

But other than the molybdenum I was taking I don't think anything on that list would be harmful (unless you have mercury toxicity that is, then you shouldn't take methylcobalamin, ALA, or NAC). I still futz with the levels of various vitamins and minerals that I take, to my benefit. So I don't mean to dissuade anyone from that. But I do want to be honest.

I'm not sure how helpful I've been, but I do wish you the best in figuring this all out.