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New Dr Snell paper on exercise and CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by MeSci, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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  2. Bob

    Bob

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    After watching Dr Snell's presentation at the FDA stakeholder conference, my guess is that this is that paper people have been discussing.

    It seems like a very helpful result, with 95% accuracy of predicting CFS, although this was a follow-up analysis, and so perhaps it wasn't put to the test, in terms of accuracy of predicting CFS...

    Results Multivariate analysis showed no significant differences between controls and CFS for Test 1. However, for Test 2 the individuals with CFS achieved significantly lower values for oxygen consumption and workload at peak exercise and at the ventilatory/anaerobic threshold. Follow-up classification analysis differentiated between groups with an overall accuracy of 95.1%.

    I hope that Beth Unger will see these results.

    It involved 51 CFS patients. With such good results, I hope it will lead to a larger study.
    It'd be interesting to read the full paper.
     
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  3. Bob

    Bob

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    Note that, in his FDA stakeholder presentation (watch at about 81.45), Dr Snell said that his follow-up study of two-day VO2 max testing (which involved larger numbers than his initial VO2 max study: 51 CFS patients vs 6 CFS patients) did not give meaningful results for VO2 max (it wasn't able to discriminate CFS patients from healthy controls very effectively). It seems that Dr Snell is moving away from VO2 max testing. I think perhaps he was referring to this new research paper, with 51 CFS patients, when discussing the failure of his VO2 max tests to discriminate CFS patients.

    Instead, he stated that two-day 'anaerobic threshold work-load' (ATWL) testing was giving helpful results, and was better able to discriminate for CFS patients. This new paper also seems to be his report on ATWL testing.

    I think the ATWL test looks at the efficiency of oxygen utilisation, in relation to work done. So, in other words, he looks at how much effort is put into an activity before the anaerobic threshold is reached. (I think he said he uses a cycling machine for this test.) (The anaerobic threshold is the point at which the body starts producing lactic acid as a by-product of producing energy. For athletes, this threshold is very high, as they are very efficient at using oxygen to produce energy.)

    Don't quote me on any of this. I might be wrong on the details, and I need to read the full paper before I understand it properly.
     
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  4. Bob

    Bob

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    Slide199.jpg

    This is Dr Snell's presentation slide from the FDA conference.
    There are 51 CFS patients, and 10 controls, so it looks like he's presenting the results of this new paper.
    The day-one test results (test 1) are in the left hand column, and the day-two test results (test 2) are in the right hand column.
    He stated that the most significant and most helpful differences between patients and controls are in the VTWL* group, and this seems to be what he is reporting on, in the abstract of the new paper.
    He indicated that the VO2 max results were not helpful, in this larger study.

    * VTWL = ventilatory threshold work-load, which seems to be the same as anaerobic threshold work-load (ATWL).
     
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  5. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    Here is the full abstract, a part of which I have a (non-significant?) bone to pick with:

    Concerning this statement: "The lack of any significant differences between groups for the first exercise test would appear to support a deconditioning hypothesis for CFS symptoms." I have not read the full-text yet, and I suspect this was just said in passing as a prelude to then contradicting the deconditioning hypothesis, but I do not understand how the lack of any significant differences between the two groups, on objective measurements (1st test), allegedly supports the deconditioning hypothesis? If anything it refutes it, how can CFS symptoms be attributed to deconditioning if non-disabled sedentary individuals with similar levels of fitness do not report such symptoms either before or after exercise?
     
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  6. Simon

    Simon

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    Agreed biophile, don't see how lack of difference on test 1 supports decon hypothesis - looks like it refutes it to me.
    At th FDA workshop, Chris Snell said VO2 max on test 2 was NOT significantly lower, which also fits with the slide Bob posted above. It was just the Workload at Anaerobic Threshold that was significant. So I'm a bit confused by the abstract (best practice is that these report actual data for primary outcomes).

    Will try to access the full text - it certainly looks interesting.
     
  7. Bob

    Bob

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    I noticed that as well.
    I agree with you both that it appears to refute the deconditioning theory.

    I'm certain, as biophile suggests, that Dr Snell uses this as a prelude to contradicting the deconditioning hypothesis.
    He absolutely only had negative things to say about the PACE Trial in his FDA presentation.
     
  8. Bob

    Bob

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    If you are referring to the word 'peak', in the abstract, perhaps it refers to "work-load peak", rather than VO2 peak? (see the graph that I posted above for details.)
    (I don't know how 'work-load peak' differs from VO2 max and ATWL/VTWL.)
     
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Maybe it means that the 'non-disabled sedentary individuals' (couch potatoes?) were (also) deconditioned through inactivity, and that deconditioning is not viewed as disability?
     
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  10. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    Perhaps, but the couch-potatoes apparently aren't experiencing debilitating CFS symptoms at rest or the equivalent prolonged post-exertional symptoms for several days after exercise. I see no mention of subjective measurements in the abstract, but it would be safe to say there would be significant differences in those too between groups.
     
  11. Simon

    Simon

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    "Oxygen consumption AND workload at PEAK exercise"
    Oxygen consumption at peak exercise is VO2max. Sorry about the CAPS, not shouting, but no editor controls when using a tablet :)
     
  12. Bob

    Bob

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    But, like you, I'd be surprised if he is referring to VO2 max, if his FDA presentation is correct.
    Do you happen to know what 'work-load peak' is, and how it differs to ATWL?
     
  13. Simon

    Simon

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    That's why it doesn't appear to make sense

    Peak workload is the maximum amount of work you apply during the session, usually shortly before collapsing... Usually it's measured in watts. On a bike its a combination of how fast you are cycling, and how step the slope (resistance) and on a treadmill it's how fast and at what slope.

    For comparison, a Tour de France cyclist sprinting to win can peak at about 750w, compared with 140W for the sedentary controls above - and that's at the end of a 100 mile race.
     
  14. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    I suspect we're just picking at a less than ideally worded sentence in the conclusion of an abstract. Admittedly, that's a really bad place to have a poorly worded sentence, but there you have it. Sometimes the writing isn't as clean and sharp as we'd like.

    It's also possible that a more strongly worded conclusion got bashed by a (biased? timid?) reviewer who wanted the conclusion statement softened. I see hints to that also in these phrases (my bolding):
    Notice how the that first sentence has a more definite phrase "would appear to support" where we are thinking a less definitive phrase like "would initially suggest" fits the data better. At the same time, conclusions that seem more supported by the data as we currently understand it ("a single exercise test is insufficient" and "a second test is necessary to document") are softened with "might" and "may be".

    Sometimes you have to give into a jerk in a small thing in order to get the paper published. :rolleyes:

    As long as the data in the paper shows a clear difference between sedentary controls and patients and has sufficient explanation of the procedure for replication/confirmation studies to be done, I'm happy.
     
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  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Its also worth noting the slide does show a lower VO2max for CFS than controls on day one. Its just that its not a lot lower on day one. In other words, there is a problem but its less than obvious. The ventilatory workload on day two however shows a major crash. As a marker that would be much superior. That crash is so big its actually scary, but do spare a thought these results are for mild or moderate patients, probably not severe and definitely not very severe.

    My guess about VO2max, without seeing a data plot, is that patients and controls would overlap, which is why its not that usefull. Its an indicator but not strong enough to be diagnostic.

    I was unable to get this paper yesterday due to the paywall.
     
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  16. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    What's with only having the 10 controls and with them all being female? I'd also like to hear (as ever) what happened to all the subjects prior to the test: how activities prior to might have contributed to any results. It is important to compare like with like as much as possible. Ideally, I would prefer all subject to be on-site for a week of 'conditioning' prior to the actual testing - or testing across with week - but under observation at all times. Just a little 'bugbear' of mine :)
     
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  17. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I would also prefer they were booked into a controlled facility a day or two earlier - and kept there for a bit if they need time to recover. However we always have to keep in mind how tight funding is.

    The all female issue is again driven by cost. Add in males and issues can arise with statistical significance, leading to a bigger study at higher cost. I hope future studies will do that though.

    The other thing is they don't need controls, not really - thats more for scientific completeness. This is a standard test used by sports medicine for a very long time, well understood, with well known results. They could probably just look up the hundreds they and others have already tested. What the controls would do though is show if there is a problem should their results be very different from what was expected from controls.
     
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  18. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    Agreed. If PEM is for some the defining symptom for 'ME' then I think more resource should be put into discovering what it is and quantifying it with the goal of producing a cost-effective test that can be used fairly. If PEM 'comes and goes' then this needs to be accounted for - and if it is 'ever-present' this too needs to be confirmed.

    I want matched-controls as a standard. I want anything to do with PEM especially, to be 'cast-iron' before I personally hang my hat on it. I think we are heading in this direction.

    Funnily enough, I had an email alert earlier, pro-health featuring a letter from Mia Farrow about Post polio Syndrome: talked about PEM too.

    Maybe PEM exists - in some way - in many diseases. Maybe it can be clinically defined more appropriately for each of those diseases; or maybe it is a result of the same physical process.

    Questions, questions, questions... Someone could write an article ;) Whatever the case though it clearly needs to be better defined and quantified for ME.

    Interesting paper :) So what test is now 'in' and what is 'out'?
     
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  19. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    alex3619 Dear chap, I was pondering another aspect that sometimes arises when answering or basing results upon questionnaires but could perhaps be applied to exercise tests: motivation.

    I wonder to what extent - could be negligible - motivation is a factor in exercise testing of people with any chronic condition affecting functionality; but perhaps more so in connection to ME?

    You or anyone happen to have any thoughts? I mean as a patient, if I suspected the 'pay-back' for me was to be dire - I might not try as hard as I could on the bike; then again as it was research I might 'push through' on the earlier testing.

    How might they account for this? Of course a week-long study involving observation, acclimatisation, and matching of similar patient cohorts to controls might help. I mean such a study of 'moderate' patients could affect outcome in general compared to 'severe' (should that even be possible); might also be a greater factor if using 'mild' and 'moderate'...

    But overcoming 'motivation' critiques is something I would like to understand better - or rather how in science they try to account for this factor.

    Adding MS to the control group would be a good move generally I think. If you get the full paper could you let me know more about the controls and the patients? Thanks.
     
  20. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I think that some of the objective results (oxygen uptake?) are completely biological results, and lower levels can't be reflective of a lack of effort. And there's also blood tests of proteins and such, showing objective abnormal results for ME/CFS patients, presumably compared to controls doing a similar amount of exertion.
     
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