1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Phoenix Rising Adds Two New Board Members
Mark Berry introduces the new President of Phoenix Rising, Dr. Gary Solomon, and welcomes Professor Jonathan Edwards to the Phoenix Rising Board of Directors.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

New article by the Newcastle team

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Jenny, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,228
    Likes:
    184
    London
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213158212000484

    Cerebral vascular control is associated with skeletal muscle ph in chronic fatigue syndrome patients both at rest and during dynamic stimulation

    Open Access Article
    • a Institute of Cellular Medicine & Newcastle Magnetic Resonance Centre, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom
    • b Institute for Ageing and Health, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom

    Abstract

    Cerebral blood flow (CBF) is maintained despite changing systemic blood pressure through cerebral vascular control, with such tight regulation believed to be under local tissue control. Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) associates with a wide range of symptoms, including orthostatic intolerance, skeletal muscle pH abnormalities and cognitive impairment. CFS patients are known to have reduced CBF and orthostatic intolerance associates with abnormal vascular regulation, while skeletal muscle pH abnormalities associate with autonomic dysfunction. These findings point to autonomic dysfunction as the central feature of CFS, and cerebral vascular control being influenced by factors outside of the brain, a macroscopic force affecting the stability of regional regulation. We therefore explored whether there was a physiological link between cerebral vascular control and skeletal muscle pH management in CFS.
    Seventeen consecutive CFS patients fulfilling the Fukuda criteria were recruited from our local CFS clinical service. To probe the static scenario, CBF and skeletal muscle pH were measured at rest using MRI and 31P magnetic resonance spectroscopy (31P-MRS).
    To examine dynamic control, brain functional MRI was performed concurrently with Valsalva manoeuvre (VM), a standard autonomic function challenge, while 31P-MRS was performed during plantar flexion exercise.
    Significant inverse correlation was seen between CBF and skeletal muscle pH at rest (r = − 0.67, p < 0.01). Prolonged cerebral vascular constriction during the sympathetic phase of VM was associated with higher pH in skeletal muscle after plantar flexion exercise (r = 0.69, p < 0.008).
    In conclusion, cerebral vascular control is closely related to skeletal muscle pH both at rest and after dynamic stimulation in CFS.
     
    ahimsa, voner, Xandoff and 9 others like this.
  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

    Messages:
    1,243
    Likes:
    1,121
    USA
    I didn't understand if the issue was vasoconstriction or vasodilation on brain? Great article.
     
  3. Gamboa

    Gamboa Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    161
    Canada
    This really resonates with me. I believe my issues stem from problems with my vascular system problems....or perhaps something else has caused problems with my vascular system control. Either way this fits with me. I had the two day exercise test done and both days I had excessive lactic acid build up for the amount of work I was doing (shows up by CO2 elimination).

    My SPECT scan showed hypoperfusion, again a vascular issue in a way and I get lots of migraines and other headaches, again vascular? All very interesting . Hope to see more research about this.
     
    ukxmrv likes this.
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,408
    Likes:
    11,819
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I have only read this superficially so far. However, it looks like its about both vasodilation and vasoconstriction, and its about both sympathetic and parasympathetic responses.

    I would like to point out that Vance Spence and others showed in 2000 that we have an exaggerated parasympathetic response.

    I don't think its primarily autonomic though, I suspect pervasive biochemical changes including increased phosphodiesterase 4 are driving this and many of our other symptoms. Thats only an hypothesis though, I could easily be wrong, or describing something that has limited applicability. I also have not yet explored how the current findings will affect this, it could change my views.

    The increased alkalinity after exercise is a very important finding. VERY important. I have yet to really look into this.

    PS The pH pattern seems to be that before activity our muscles are too alkaline, they get acidic too fast during exercise, and only very slowly lose that acidity until they become too alkaline again. This might explain PEM in that subgroup. This paper also demonstrates it can explain poor cerebral infusion - possibly as we become more alkaline, blood flow in the brain declines.

    The pH determines in part the amount of oxygen that is dumped from blood into tissues. So while a more alkaline pH can have long term effects on oxygen dumping that increase dumping, the short term effects will decrease oxygen dumping. Increasing acidity during exercise does the opposite. More oxygen is dumped, but enzymatic activity to increase oxygen dumping is impeded. I don't know how important this is but it is something I am considering.

    One possible implication is that at rest, but some time after we have been exercising, the oxygen dumping from blood into tissues will be low. The muscle could be oxygen starved. There are however compensatory changes, which is why I am not sure of the impact.

    I am also unclear on how pervasive the pH changes are. The tissue spread will change the explanation.
     
    MeSci, ahimsa, voner and 2 others like this.
  5. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

    Messages:
    1,243
    Likes:
    1,121
    USA
    Oh I didn't catch the PH alkaline before exercise. Do you think If i do the saliva bands is reflective of how alkaline the muscles are? I have Horrible PEM. But I show high acidic levels when I do the saliva test!! Also, I force myself to eat greens and avoid acid raising foods.
     
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,408
    Likes:
    11,819
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    "indicating that a higher acidity within the skeletal muscle at rest was associated with increased CBF." Higher acidity is associated with better cerebral blood flow. However, causation has yet to be established, we need either intervention testing or a mechanism to show causation. So its possible that whatever drives more alkaline pH in muscle might be driving lower cerebral blood flow. Or it could be the acidity itself. We need to know more, and now that these questions are being asked if they keep getting funding we might get those answers.

    I don't know the relevance of saliva pH. We have long known ME patients have increased acidity post exercise, but the increased alkalinity at other times is new. This may or may not be reflected in saliva or even blood, I don't know enough about what was done yet.

    I find myself wondering now if ketogenic diets might benefit us from the alteration of pH alone.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  7. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,309
    Likes:
    840
    UK
    However - an essential part of the understanding.
     
  8. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

    Messages:
    578
    Likes:
    176
    Victoria, BC
    Hi; I took it that a key statement is that on p.4, in the "Discussion" section: "It is possible that CFS is driven by a PRIMARY peripheral abnormality that is associated with SECONDARY (my u/c emphasis) central sequelae, where a compromised skeletal muscle cellular membrane function underpins the observed abnormalities." This seems to point towards things like Sarah Myhill's recent post about "Mitochondrial dysfunction" and, at a further stretch, to Thomas Seyfried's recent book "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease" (there is an essay with the same title that he published a couple of years ago that is easy to access on the web). If mito membranes really are at the root of so many troubles, it might make sense to try NT Factors, which is aimed directly at that. I have a friend with ME who has been taking it for a few months and reports definite improvement, and I have been taking it for a shorter while and can record some improvement--doubtless my great age makes improvement a very slow process. Chris
     
  9. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

    Messages:
    5,824
    Likes:
    5,976
    Cornwall England
    Sorry for delay. I kept forgetting to post and draw attention to it:

    Autumn 2012 issue of ME Research UK page 10 and 11 'Impaired Cardiac Function' is about the above paper and the research team from Newcastle.

    You might already have read/seen it. Just thought I'd mention.

    Also I wonder if we might change the thread title? It's difficult to see what the research is about. Perhaps change it to the paper title? Only a suggestion :)
     
  10. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

    Messages:
    578
    Likes:
    176
    Victoria, BC
    Firestorm, thanks for the link to that account of another interesting Newcastle article--but that account is NOT about the article that is being discussed in this thread--the one your link deals with was published in the Journal of Internal Medicine, and the one discussed here is in NeuroImage: Clinical. But anything that Julia Newton's gang produces is good reading! Chris
     
  11. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

    Messages:
    5,824
    Likes:
    5,976
    Cornwall England
    Ok. Thanks Chris. Should read the darn thing myself before listening to others!! :)
     
  12. Simon

    Simon

    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes:
    4,630
    Monmouth, UK
    MeSci, Firestormm and Valentijn like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page