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Neuromuscular damage from B12 deficiency - take action or wait for neurology appt.?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Pea, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I don't think she was referring to a hypokalemic crisis when she mentioned "serious" and truth be told, a good detox may give you some pretty severe lethargy, headaches, disorientation, brain fog, etc,which may mimic this process early on. I'm not quite sure why you insist that detox does't exist when it would be a natural process for the body once it's given the vitamins, minerals, etc., it needs to function correctly. You don't like to go by tests but yet your basing everyone's symptoms on those that can occur with folate deficiency. Realistically, you just can't do that accurately when everyone has completely different defects. Plus, all those symptoms cross over with about a zillion other health problems so to lump them seems overdone. You may have heard about the lumpers and splitters in medicine. You would be a lumper. I'm afraid lumping is what got traditional medicine off track in the first place. Please don't fall into that trap or you'll miss something more serious with yourself as well as time goes on.
    Angela
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  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Well, I would expect that once the immune system "reboots" on the protocol, some herxheimer reaction would be expected from the die-off of pathogens.

    That said, the word "detox" has a new age ring to it, and seems to lump together any symptoms that can not be otherwise explained, usually from a lack of understanding of the biochemical processes involved.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    I'm not quite sure why you insist that detox does't exist when it would be a natural process for the body once it's given the vitamins, minerals, etc., it needs to function correctly


    A detoxification process may very well happen. However, when the specific symptoms have been able to be traced to any of all those various causes by elliminating them and taking a suitable amount of the corrective measures and they go away, and then if the offending items are restarted and the symtpoms come back and then can be made to go away again with the corrective measures. Dying would be a natural process too. However, just because dying would be a natural process doesn't mean we should do it more quickly than we have to. "Would" is quite a weasal word in this context. When given all the viitamins and minerals to restart methylation and there is success at that restart, low potassium would be the natural result. When given all the viitamins and minerals to restart methylation and there is success at that restart, low potassium is the natural result. That is a hypothesis easily demonstrates. The "detox" hyptothesis so far can't be demonstrated. Sure, maybe stuff can be found in the urine and feces when the body is dumping toxins, but it is not those toxins found upon excretion that are casuing a problem as they are gone forever. There is no way to demonstrate that the symptoms are due to "detox" whereas it is easy to demonstrate they are due to low potassium or under other circumstances to induced and sometimes paradoxical folate deficiency. When induced folate deficiencies are not recognized the hypothesis is equally untestable. Until Metafolin became available the hyptihesis was untestable. As the usual period of understanding and acceptance of the new understandings is usually about 70 years, and we are in the first year of understanding, I understand resistance to this new and different idea. When no hypotheses are testable, all seem equally good.



    Plus, all those symptoms cross over with about a zillion other health problems so to lump them seems overdone. You may have heard about the lumpers and splitters in medicine. You would be a lumper.

    LOL! And your being ridiculous. Crunch bird my lumpers and splitters! I'm a systems analyst working in group health for most of my working life who makes lots of fine distinctions. I've also been sick my whole life with these things and have a lot of experience in being sick in many ways and finally realizing after 100 practioners trying out every theory in the book and then some on me at a 20 year cost of $200,000 and all of them being 100% wrong as to hypothesis and treatment based on that hypothesis that there are a lot more incorrect hypotheses than correct. In this all I mean by "correct" is that it works and has predictable results with the various stated conditions. And of course we are talking percentages I have worked through these things with myself and a hundreds of other people over a 9 year period and each time they are worked through in excruciating detail, there has always so far been a different explanation for the symptoms than actual "detox" and they become predictable as to cause and predictable as to what removes them. The people who can't work through them are the people who won't give up the glutathione, NAC, whey, folinic acid, folic acid and a few other components that also are part of the glutathione precursor pairs. And many of those people have continued "detoxing" for years and no better for all that. If it is potassium deficiency they label "detox" they risk death. If it is the folate deficency, either continued or newly induced they can do damage to themselves.

    If you would like to work through all this with me in detail I would be fine with looking over your entire program and suggesating changes and tests you can apply and demonstrate for yourself, and if those don't work, help chase down what does work. I don't mind learning new things at all. This whole induced and paradoxical folate deficiency thing is brand new. It represents a huge change for me and everybody else. Cognitive dissonence is very uncomforatble. Many people would rather take their lumps than change their beliefs.

    You don't like to go by tests but yet your basing everyone's symptoms on those that can occur with folate deficiency

    I just disagree with many interpretations of many tests becasue they have lousy foundations and shaky hypothesis underlyomng the interpretations. I had lots and lots of tests. As far as folate deficiency, it only applies to a specific group of symptoms under a handful of very specific circumstances, very hair splitting.

    When you take the hundreds of possible symptoms of mb12/adb12/methylfolate deficiencies and that nobody has them all and everybody has many different combinations, wouldn't the number of combinations taken 20 at a time be: 300C20/ 20C1 = 300 x 299 x 298 x 297 x296 x 295 .... x21 x20/(20x19x18x17...x2) (and I may not have this exactly right, its; been along time, but I am close enough here for all intents and purposes as the upper limit may actually be 400 instead of 300, and maybe 3000 when we factor in all the test results as well.

    So a person could say that there are some large number of possible names for the multitudes of possibe symptom combinations. Nobody has named every syndrome that could be so identified but there are hundreds of them named out of billions and billions and trillions and quadrillions of possible ones. So if one splits everything out to the finest distinctions, there is an impossible and fruitless task. If one recognizes the patterns of the syndromes as subsets of one universe of symptoms, it becomes manageble to identify specific subsets under specific circumstances that mean something specific, ie induced or paradoxical folate deficiency.

    Calling 10 or 20 or some number of specific patterns all detox, when the most common testable hypotheses have nothing at all to do with actual "detoxification" but rather very specific deficiencies is dangerous and foolish. So the challange is to identify what is might be actual detox and distinguish from all the specific deficiency states that are possible and demonstrable by a defined test of the hypothesis.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    once the immune system "reboots" on the protocol, some herxheimer reaction would be expected from the die-off of pathogens.

    Actually it wouldn't be. "Herxheimer reaction" is misused as much as "detox". It occurs on rare occasion by the massive killoff that happens all at once from an antibiotic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction
    The Herxheimer reaction resembles bacterial sepsis and can occur after initiation antibacterials such as penicillin or tetracycline, or treatment of tick-borne relapsing fever. An association has been found between the release of heat-stable proteins from spirochetes and the reaction. The same can be true for candida die-off when toxins from the dying candida leak into the body. Typically, the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins. It manifests as fever, chills, rigor, hypotension, headache, tachycardia, hyperventilation, vasodilation with flushing, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions. The intensity of the reaction indicates the severity of inflammation. Reaction commonly occurs within two hours of drug administration, but is usually self-limiting. Prophylaxis and treatment with an anti-inflammatory agent may stop progression of the reaction. Oral aspirin every four hours for 12 days, or 60 mg of prednisone orally or intravenously has been used as an adjunctive treatment.

    The Herxheimer reaction is classically associated with penicillin treatment of syphilis. Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours. The reaction is also seen in other diseases caused by spirochetes, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease and tick-borne relapsing fever) and leptospirosis, and in Q fever.[1] Similar reactions have also been reported to occur in bartonellosis (including cat scratch disease),[2][3] brucellosis,[4] typhoid fever,[5] and trichinosis.[6]
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  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ok, I see what you're saying. In that case, I'm probably misusing the term. Semantics aside, when the immune system comes back on line - and if pathogens are present - won't we likely see an increased inflammatory response, akin to what happens when you've got a flu or cold? Wouldn't we possible see fever, myalgia, diarrhea, sleep problems, fatigue, brain fog aso?
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    The immune system doesn't come back that fast. It appears to take about 10 days to slowly ramp up and severl months to full functioning assuming the active procol with immediate methylation startup. In my experience my inflammation held steady for 3 days and then dropped like a rock for the next week. In that time my inflammed and burnoijg bladder felt normal, my beef-red burning tongue no longer burned and the layer of tissue that was so inflammed and burning sloughed off with very nice normal pink skin underneith. My painful burning muscles were no longer burning. In general the inflammation dropped like a rock. With Metafolin the inflammation that got going and raging with the induced folate deficiency started decreasing within hours.

    With hydroxycbl and folinic acid imflammation does increase at first and unless the person has paradoxical folate deficiency then drops rahter than continuing to increase as with folate deficiency.

    Most of the items you mention are symptoms of deficiency that can start clearing 3 days after the last needed item is added. The sleep disorders change. When the nervous sytem starts working and ATP ramps up, sleep can be more difficult but as out internal volume control adapts to NORMAL ATP and NORMAL neurological signals and slowly comes down from the deficiency induced hypersensitive position that devolped from low signals and low ATP. As the body becomes normal so does sleep.

    I believe the assumptions and premises on which your question is based simply don't apply to the active b12 protocol. There is no evidence of that at all.
  7. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    I am really not trying to get your goat or personally attack you. I am trying to get you to see just one other point of view here. I know that you are passionate about this area and I fully understand the reason for it. I also know that you are really trying to help people and that you HAVE helped many people. In all honesty, I am actually going to revisit the idea of trying methyl B12 based on a lot of the information you've provided. However, just because you can systematically go through & correlate every issue or outcome that someone may have with a folate or Methyl B12 deficiency doesn't make you a splitter or mean you're systematic about data review in a true sense. It just means you systematically correlate everything back to a few things.

    I've noticed that with few exceptions, when its all said and done everything always seems to come back to a few issues for you and yet, you can't prove that hypothesis anymore than I can prove my "detox" hypothesis. You may have done so with yourself somehow and you may have interpreted a few tests this way for someone else, but in the end I sincerely doubt that you truly had all of the necessary tests done that would prove such a hypothesis. It reminds me of this whole "Evidenced based medicine" craze that's taken over in the past decade or so. Is there proof? Well if you don't have double blind placebo controlled studies on a large population than it isn't. Yet we can easily problem solve and recognize many things without quantitative or qualitative evidence. As a thinking person (at least, on some days) I don't need "proof" that sticking my hand on a hot fire will burn it because I have learned this lesson in other ways, through watching others. Sometimes, proof ins't possible but its still true. Also, to use death as a natural consequence, in keeping with with detox, is an unnecessary dramatization. Nevertheless, you talk about using proof or evidence for folate and methyl deficiencies without valuing or utilizing any of the components for doing so, unless they fit your theories such as going only by a list of symptoms that could be cross referenced with other problems as well. Since you have stated more than once that lab testing is basically useless and we'd all be dead if we only relied on tests (much of which I agree with by the way), I'm not sure how you can pontificate about systematizing data, developing hypotheses, and concluding more realistic outcomes somehow since what is your measure?

    I'm not talking about abstract measures here because I could easily use those for "detox" also. For example, if my child has diarrhea so severe after day # 2 of Methyl B12 so that her entire bum is inflamed and I get a urine & stool test and her levels of lead and cadmium are off the charts while she has symptoms of Pica, you can almost be certain that she has heavy metal detox. Yet by your criteria, you'd go by a list of symptoms other people have and determine its folate deficiency or potassium deficiency and no testing would be done at all nor would this explain her symptoms of pica, at least, satisfactorily. Is losing heavy metals in your stool a bad thing? Heck no! I want her to lose heavy metals. But I'm one of those irrational people who thinks that detoxification isn't a bad thing either. However, one has to be realistic and know that detox may be a good thing but it can also be powerful. Depending on genetics, toxic exposures, triggers, etc., you just may not be able to soldier through the process, whether its detox or losing vast amounts of electrolytes (despite normal tests?).

    If I'm hearing you correctly, you'd like a laundry list of differential diagnoses before one can presume to claim detoxification. Yet since methylation is certainly not isolated to making new RNA & DNA with some cell repair and new immune factors thrown in for good measure, there's also filtering chemicals, bacteria, virus, etc. For most of us, losing these factors is what constitutes detox since it stimulates your immune system to react to these pathogens and toxins. In my book, that's a good thing. But it still hurts and if you can get there another way, maybe that's the right decision. Everyone has to do whats right for their bodies and they might not have less common defects that prevent them from using other forms.

    I don't mean to instigate anything or antagonize you here, I'm merely looking to show you that even while many of us have fatigue, lethargy, malaise, headaches, bowel issues, orthostatic hypotension, etc., Rome has many paths. We are not all the same and to treat us as such is lumping in the worst fashion. It ignores those who cannot "soldier" through your process or Rich Vank's process, making them somehow irrelevant. As though these could be the only treatments and these deficiencies, the only causes. I wish it were that simple but if it were, I think that even the ridiculously pompous medical profession might figure it out eventually. If that's the case and there really is only one treatment, one path to Rome, then we can expect to see more PWCs find healing in the future because word should spread like wildfire.

    I also look forward to trying your method in early March so Ill be ready with my potassium!

    In sincerity & respect,
    Angela
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  8. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Angela,
    Estrogen protects against glutamate toxicity - I found several papers to that effect and found it also to be true for me. I take DHEA which makes estrogen and protects me. I almost died from glutamate toxicity during PMS once. Also I take 7000 IU D3 every day. I use Superior Source sublinguals...so they come in 5000 IU and I take 2 on M,W,F. It gets my D3 reading up to 70 which is perfect. I tried taking 10000 IU each day and
    my D3 got up to 100. LEF was not upset with me. But I found it changed my urinary ph (measured with litmus) too much and I got a urinary tract infection, which is VERY SERIOUS for me as my blood pressure is EXTREMELY high (3 b.p mutations) and with a UTI my blood pressure protocol woul dnot work.

    So anyway, 70 is perfect...I believe. I just dont know what D3 would have to do with methyl tolerance.
    Do you understand the tie? Thanks
    Rydra
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    I am really not trying to get your goat or personally attack you

    I never thought you were.

    Since you have stated more than once that lab testing is basically useless


    That all depends upon the interpretations. The same tests that are useless with one interpretation, ie "all in range" and ignored or looked at by somebody else and they say "alcoholic" pattern, and while they may be wrong about the alcohol that actually is a far more useful interpretation that says that there is a pattern here, and actually that says basically "multiple nutritional deficiencies of b-vitamins" which actually was right on the nose but misunderstood.

    If I'm hearing you correctly, you'd like a laundry list of differential diagnoses before one can presume to claim detoxification.

    When a person takes glutathione and has severe induced folate deficiency symptoms and calls it "detox" and then quits the glutathione and takes the Metafolin and behold, the symtpoms go away. Now if they have an entire different set of symtoms from the gutathione that doesn't match up to the folate deficiency symptoms, that is another thing entirely. When I read report after report after report of various subsets of the same limited set of symptoms as "detox" from NAC and Glutathione, when 10 people take such, induce the symptoms, then clear them, without exception, when many others with the same symptoms in the same circumstance accidently aquired do the same, chances are there is a duck standing there rather than a chicken. Every now and then we may actually be seeing churkendoose. However, when the symptoms don't match maybe we have a swan instead.

    if my child has diarrhea so severe after day # 2 of Methyl B12 so that her entire bum is inflamed

    That isn't a pattern and one thing, even if it is a symptom included in any number of patterns, does not a pattern make.


    You may or may not have any idea of what I'm doing, why or how. I don't really care if you would consider me a splitter or a clumper or whatever, words I had never heard in this way before.

    What I think is going on is constantly being modified by experience, yes "learning" might be one way to describe it, but really only approximates it. And yes, paradoxical folate deficiency is real and exists in some percentage of people. At this point I and we, and by that I mean all other interested parties that are cooperating in figuring this out, are trying to figure out how to identify this paradoxical folate deficiency and a number of other induced folate deficiencies, and determine just who is so afflicted and who isn't. Now if I had a database of 1,000,000 persons with all the needed data that would be easy. The trick is to figure out what the minimum pattern needed to identify the target without too many false positives or false negatives. For the b12 deficiency pattern I took histories of about 1000 people, in person, and observed then for a number of hours after a challange dose of mb12 and questioning after that, with an eye towards developing a screening questionaire and data mining pattern for selecting insureds from their records for offerring an opt-in program. If the person has 200 symptoms, signs, characteristics from the list posted on the basics, it's a slam dunk. If they have 100 symptoms across the categories it's a slam dunk. If they have 20 symptoms, the specific nature of the patterns of those symptoms, and which symptoms, is very important. Five non-specific symptoms are 5 non-specifc symptoms but 100 non-specific patterns can be completely specific in aggragate. Somewhere between those two, depending upon the symptoms and the specific combinations, we can reach a probability that 85% will respond to mb12 within 2 hours. It can be as few as 3 semi-specifc symtpoms in a specifc pattern. The combination of serum cobalamin, uMMA and serum HCY will miss about 95% of those that will show a 2 hour response to a 5 star mb12. Clearly I have a different idea of how sick a person should be before using b12 than the AMA.


    Depending on genetics, toxic exposures, triggers, etc., you just may not be able to soldier through the process, whether its detox or losing vast amounts of electrolytes (despite normal tests?).

    It's very important to detect the pattern of low potassium. That can be fatal, even with "normal" tests last week, even with geneuinely GOOD results last week. So there some false positives are ok because the people are not going to be harmed by thinking they might have low potassium. False negatives can be deadly. Losing vast amounts of electrolytes despite "normal" or even genuinely good tests can be fatal. Diarrhea is a major killer of children in many countries. That is a pattern that needs quick recognition and corrective actions, even if is "just" electrolyte rehydration therapy. That has to be taken care of before less critical patterns. There is a triage.

    On the other hand an induced folate deficiency isn't going to kill a person as quickly as potassium. It can, if severe enough cause neurological damage in weeks and cascading damage in the period following and if corrected incorrectly cause even more damage while attempting correction.

    I wouldn't want to see somebody die from "detox" that was actually low potassium or have permanent CNS damage and disability from an induced folate deficiency or incorrect correction of said induced deficiency. It is genuinely important to uncover it if that is what is happening, for the sake of the person's life and health. I came very close to death and had my life destroyed by the ignorance of the research and medical establishment. That is a tradition I don't intend to continue. I was one of those medical writeoffs for decades. Nobody understood what was going on and nobody was willing to make the effort to do so. I don't have to be right every time to save lives and health, especially for the person who's life is saved.


    It ignores those who cannot "soldier" through your process or Rich Vank's process, making them somehow irrelevant

    That is totally false. I am willing to work through the problems with a person piece by piece, layer by layer, item by item. That is EXACTLY what brought this whole paradoxical folate deficiency, induced folate deficiency and induced low potassium business about, solving the problems of a sizable percentage of people unable to tolerate the simplified methylation and/or the active b12 or is some cases, even just living. Read the various postings by all sorts of people pointing at one study showing how the potassium and folate are connected or watever. A thousand people looking for clues find a lot more than 1 or 2. Having 2 different programs and comparing both their sucessess and their problems have been very informative. Without seeing all these people have all these "detox" symptoms from folic or folinic acid was a real eye opener. Seeing the group having a different "detox" reaction from active b12 startup pointed at something else and then there was the group having another "detox" reaction form glutathione/NAC/whey. It's enough to get a person thinking. It's working through all those various reactions, of which I was unfortunate enough to experience all varieties, for myself and many others that is solving these problems.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    All right, got it. Thanks.
  11. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Again, detox to most of us, is the process of cleaning house. The bacteria, virus, metals, etc, not the vitamin deficiencies.

    As for reactions to NAC & Glutathione I would think that would be easy. They're both potent sulfur donors and anyone with a CBS or SUOX defect can't handle them or they'll be sicker. More sulfur thru a region already heavily dumping sulfur isn't beneficial. You'll have headaches, fatigue, more brain fog, irritability, lethargy, and in some cases, a hydrogen sulfide type of stupor that's similiar to hybernation with depressed breathing, slower brain & organ actvity, etc.

    Anything that provokes ammonia (protein, B 6) or increases lipids (EFA's), or increases sulfur (NAC, Glut, SAMe, though SAMe isn't as potent as the others so many do well), are probably going to do poorly on these things with a partial of full CBS block. if they have otHer blocks, it's worse. For example, I have the MTHFR A1298c, the CBS, and the NOS so I don't make BH4 to clean anything up but keep pumping out ammonia and sulfites because of the CBS/NOS. I haven't figured out the rest of them from 23&me so don't know if I have the BHMT but if I do, that'd be even worse.
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    This sounds interesting. Could you expand on those SNPs (CBS, SUOX, NOS), and where to find them in 23andme? Do you know where I can find info on that? Thanks.
  13. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I'm no scientist but here's my understanding.
    VDR Taq requires methyl B 12 from that MTR/MTRR region in order to make dopamine, immune factors, & Vit D.
    If you have a defect, you won't absorb Vit D well and probably won't be trying to take much methyl B 12 from that MTR. But if you start to supplement, and you are absorbing it well, you'll know because you'll sure feel the new onslaught of methyl groups in the system now being used by the MTR. You may have higher vit D levels but transport with the VDR may be less than exemplary. Start taking rosemary, my doc told me about this and what a difference! I tried Yasko's VIT D but couldn't handle it, hers is too potent and works to well so I probably have this defect as well. having this defect allows more methyls because it can't steal away the methyl B 12 from the MTR and there's still the need for it to make dopamine, etc. This is why some react strongly to good Vit Ds.

    You said you almost died during PMS and as I understand it, our estrogen dips and glutamate goes up, up, up. However, just because we are women & have estrogen doesn't mean we can protect ourselves completely from glutamate excitotoxicity. We have plenty of hormone ups & downs and there's an area that processes estrogen known as the PEMT enzyme that may be a big factor with women and cancer, autism, seizures, and CFS.

    Then you add the typical diet into the equation and you might as well throw in the towel since everything processed is full of MSG but they've found a loophole and can say "no MSG" on their product when it has 10-15 forms of MSG! They call them natural flavors now or hydrolyzed protein (soy, whey, pea, veg, etc) or a million other words, but the hydrolyzed are the worst since they have 3 different Excitotoxins in them along with cancer causing products. We are 70% MSG free in my house but with kid's it's hard not to have treats or crackers for them and anything that tastes good. For it to taste good it has to have at least 4-6 MSG chemicals and usually much more since these are only added to make food taste good so we'll buy it. I have a good understanding of addiction and glutamate receptors hold onto the memory and taste for addiction which is why we crave many products that include these chemicals. The glutamate receptor is where cocaine addiction resides so you can see why these foods become so addicting. This is the reason I limit them whenever possible and take all of those antioxidants and glutamate blockers (mag citrate being excellent). This is one area my doc really got me squared away.

    http://autismnti.com/images/Excitotoxins-_Website_version.pdf
  14. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I wish I could! I haven't been able to figure out how to make sense out of the 23&me genes enough to correlate with Yasko's panel. I've only figured out a few because my doctor knew those 3 SNPs. She said she tried for a while on those others but it couldn't be perfectly correlated so she didn't want to make mistakes with that. I don't think 23&me does the SUOX but they do 2/3 of the other Yasko ones, especially the bad ones like CBS, ACAT, SHMT, MTHFR's, etc. I keep hoping she'll figure it out since she's motivated to make it cheaper for patients.
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ok, thanks. I'll try to see what I can find in 23andme. There is a whole vocabulary of acronyms I'm unfamiliar with here, lol.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    I'm working on a decision tree for working through all sorts of things. As the word "detox" is applied to at least 10 different things that absolutly are not detoxification related, very "overloaded" in the current computer vernacular, it can make the word itself difficult to understand and a source of contention and impediment to communication that have nothing to do with the actual problems, as we have seen here. If you could arrange the actual symptoms you and others have experienced and the various supplement items cleartly linked via stop and start trials, if a single item casues symptoms, what those are, if combinations have symptoms that the idividual items do not have, and so on making explicitly clear what are symptoms and what are interpretations and explanations and the background of before treatment symptoms and current symptoms and what all supplements and treatments are and if there are related side effects from specified medications it would be very helpful.

    As for reactions to NAC & Glutathione I would think that would be easy...
    headaches, fatigue, more brain fog, irritability, lethargy


    As these are identical to a subset of the induced folate/b12 defieincies from Glutathione and NAC, are there any distinguishing symptoms that are not included in the folate/b12 deficiency set?

    a hydrogen sulfide type of stupor that's similiar to hybernation with depressed breathing, slower brain & organ actvity, etc.

    Can you fill out the "etc" with specific symptoms? What does slower organ activity have as symptoms?


    Thankyou for the info so far supplied.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    So msg/glutamate excitatory response would also be what at least used to be called Chinese Restaurant Syndrome?
  18. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Sorry, I forgot about some info on those SNPs. Here are the basics as I understand them. Take it with a grain of salt since I like the bottom line:

    NOS
    Nitric Oxide Synthase is in the urea cycle, which is responsible for ammonia clean up and making nitric oxide (think of Dr. Pall's NO/ONOO research) which is supposed to keep the blood vessels open and free of any plaque but this region also cleans up the stuff from the oxidation fallout, like free radicals. It takes a chemical called BH4 to do all of that and that comes of the DHPR enzymes (which is controlled by the MTHFR A1298C enzyme). The only trouble is, many have a defect in the MTHFR too so if both are out, there are really going to be troubles here. No BH4 means no toxic waste clean up and that's bad since you have huge build ups of ammonia which is irritating to the brain & tissues as well as too many free radicals running around "beating up other cells and stealing their wallets, or their positive energy, essentially leaving them for dead" this is my doctor's explanation and I like it.

    CBS
    Cystabetahionine Synthase which is the door or gateway to the liver (thru transulfuration) and kidneys (thru urea cycle) so that everything is filtered out here, converted into better forms (if there isn't a defect), and glutathione is made. A defect here means it works too well, like a type A CEO or something. It drains all of the good guys, methyl groups, & vitamins/minerals, etc out of the methylation cycle and dumps it all onto the liver & urea cycle as toxic versions of ammonia and sulfites. This means that the more protein you eat and the more supplements you take, it just dumps out through this open barn door, letting the horses out. Only now the horses are wild & dangerous.

    MTHFR A1298C
    This is a rather common defect, between it and the C677T, probably 50% or more of the population have at least one block in one of these areas. This enzyme seems to activate that DHPR enzyme so that BH4 is made. This chemical is really interesting since it seems to do everything. I like my doctor's explanation on this one too & it goes something like this "BH4 is your mother. She's a multitasking dream who can manage housekeeping duties (lending out chemicals to NOS for clean up & heart/brain preservation), keeping everyone in the family up to date on current events and other family members (communication throughout the brain & nervous system with dopamine, serotonin, & nor-epi. I think melatonin also) and her only goal is to keep you healthy (neurotransmitters talk to the immune system and keep a cold from being something much worse, etc).

    I have partial defects in all 3 of these so this is what it means to me:
    CBS
    Too much toxic waste dumping through the barn door (some call this the hole in the bucket because of Down's syndrome)
    It means sulfur isn't neutralized to sulfate, a less harmful form but turns into Toxic sulfites instead. If you have the SUOX defect on top of this, your really up a creak without a paddle since you can't convert sulfur much at all & stuff like broccoli or garlic become a problem). Not only that, you can't process alcohol well (which is why I use to get a wicked hangover whenever I drank!) or homogenized milk. The milk takes some crazy enzyme to process it that uses up molybenum so people probably don't do well because of that. This one also causes more phenol sensitivity and since I eat berries, apples, and every other fruit and vegetable like gangbusters (only to have headaches and migraines later without knowing why) I now take Houston's No Fenol enzyme and its so much better. I also sprinkle yucca on my protein to minimize the ammonia coming through the gate and I'm not positive yet but I think this has led to much less brain fog by the end of the day. Alotta times, ammonia & sulfite build up causes brain fog, lethargy, weakness, irritability, headaches, and all kinds of fun stuff!

    NOS
    My garbage trucks don't work and the supervisor in that area "plays poker all day with his feet up, drinking a beer & watching my garbage pile up more" another one of my doctor's explanations (you can probably see why I like her now, she's a hoot!)
    Now my blood vessels are shrinking up and probably building plaque so when I have chest pain in another 10 years, I'll know why.

    MTHFR
    My mom's horribly dysfunctional, the "sort of mom who puts her kids in the backyard all day ignoring them while she watches soap operas and talks on the phone" (again, my doctor)so you have no clue what's going on in the family, you keep getting long, lingering colds that often become sinus infections, pneumonia, or ear infections, and you can't pay attention to your school work since your dopamine is too low.

    Not terribly scientific but it seems to work for me.

    You might like her explanations of the whole cycle but she seems to leave her more colorful descriptions for when she talks to us. But they're still better than the Dr. Yasko version, as if anything wouldn't be better than that! I hope this helps a bit.

    http://autismnti.com/yourbodyschemistry.html

    Angela
  19. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    California
    Yes, except it should be changed to American Food syndrome or Industrialized world food syndrome for more accuracy. Example, my dad had alzheimers so glutamates are a big no, no but older folks don't learn about things like this so well. Since glutamates excite the nerve to death, I didn't want him eating these foods & yet, this is exactly what they were eating. People don't want to cook much when they live alone, get older, or have big families so they tend to eat fast foods, boxed foods, etc. Their "Rice a Roni" not only had MSG right on the box but it had 16 other chemicals that were all hidden MSG! Their Ken's Steakhouse salad dressing had 22! Their Campbell's soup had 13 and their boxed herbed pasta mix had a whopping 27! Now consider you'll have natural glutamates in the steak you eat, the tomotates you eat on your salad, and maybe the black olives you have on the side but you'll be adding up to 30 or 40 chemicals with your side dish and dressing!

    The food manufacturers became savvy about this negative association with MSG so started calling these chemicals other things. Now you feel safe and secure that you aren't eating any MSG at all, unless you eat some chinese food here & there, when nothing could be further from the truth. This is why you can sit down and finish an entire bag of Dorito's while you'll only eat a bowl of plain chips. Its a great tactic to get us to buy their food. In a way, their sorta stuck now because who would buy Campbell's if it didn't have MSG to make it tasty? You'd just buy Progresso and then Campbell's would go down the drain. Its a sad affair that the majority of the food we eat actually causes neuroinflammation and outright nerve/neuron death.
  20. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I will definitely think about this more but I can tell you that the horrendous chills & goose pimples I get whenever I go up on anything that stimulates this kind of cleaning is a sure sign. It is a kind of deep freezing cold that comes with a nice flu or a bad cold, where no matter what you do you can't get warm yet you sweat despite the chills. At times, my teeth will actually chatter.

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