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Negative reaction to Amino Acid IVs

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by aquariusgirl, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Hi all

    I have been doing amino acid IVs for a couple of months now. Weekly or bi-weekly.

    I started with the Aminosyn formulation, but this gave me unpleasant brain sensations that I assumed were excitotoxin-related so I switched to FreAmine 8.5 % which is what I am told Dr Dan Peterson in Incline Village, Nevada, uses.

    This formulation seemed to have fewer or lower levels of the excitotoxic aminos, although it still had some arginine (which is pro-viral) and some cysteine.

    I eventually ran a UAA after about 6 weeks and my results seemed marginally worse (if that's possible.)

    Some undesirables were high (ammonia, glycine), most were low, and
    I also had very elevated cystathionine, which I ascribed to a lack of B6, since that is the co-factor needed to convert it to AKG or cysteine.

    I added a shot of b6 to the IV hoping that would help, but this last time I got massive brain fog.

    I'm wondering if the cysteine is auto-oxidising and generating more sulfite than I can process. (Yeah, I can barely understand this.. I got it from the cfs_yasko list..courtesy of Rich Van K.)

    So, er, um, any ideas?

    Is there any way to make these IVs work?

    Any Peterson patients want to chime in here?

    I have spoken to other (non_peterson patients) who did AA IVs and seemed to run into problems too.

    And I read that some of the autistic kids had to quit them because of the excitotoxicity problem.. but I thought I got around that by changing formulations.

    Maybe I just need to get a custom made formulation...but I'm not sure what that should contain to get around the cysteine auto oxidising problem (if such it is) and the excitotoxicity issue.

    Thanks
  2. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi AQ,

    according to M. Pall cysteine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid are stimulating the NMDA-receptor. I had this probem as well, I was very down in aspartic acid, glutamic acid and cystein but couldnt tolerate these three, what helped were Mg Injections together with A-B12 per inj. You can also give Mg as infusion but not together with amino acids, and not together with folic acid because these may react with each other and fall out. Mg is very agressive and hurts by injection, given as i.v. infusion it should be diluted enough to make sure it doesnt damage your veins.
    mybe you have a problem converting B6 to p5p?? B6 or P5p are known to lower NMDA activity by generating GABA. Did you ever try GABA? do you know your Taurine level? usually taurin helps to transport Ca (form massive Ca influx because of NMDA stimulation) outside the cells, but there is a problem if taurine is already high because of CBS upregulation. What helped me lately was Mg per inj. A-B12 by inj. and folinic acid.
  3. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yes, GABA helps. Taurine was high when I first started taking methylation supplements.. but now it's kind of low (at least on a UAA) so maybe I could try that.

    Thanks joopiter.

    BTW, to combat what I think was an excess of ammonia in the brain after the fiasco of the IV+ B6, I took L ornithine, molybdenum & cholestyramine.

    I got this combo from an article I read by David Jernigan, lyme doc.
  4. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    make sure you have no aspartame in the cholestyramine as it is often added to sweet cholestyramine. Aspartame makes me worse. And consider to try p5p I guess you have low taurine because its not converted from cystathionine. molybdenum can make it worse if it is too much I was never sure if molybdemum was good or bad I juste take 100g which is included in the LEF Mix.

    BTW cholestyramine is know to cause severe detox reactions, consider trying something instead of cholestyramine. And what I would do is everything for the gut. I really improve doing that. search for the product mucoperm and look at the ingredients, I take spirulina, chlorella, curcumine, and Theralac which is really very good (but may cause Ferrum deficiency because of lactoferrin in it)
  5. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I took a really small dose of cholestyramine and less than a cap of L ornithine.
    Seemed to work like a charm, although I did feel a bit drained this a.m.
    The bad thing about cholestyramine is that it binds fat soluble vitamins. I wonder if beta sitosterol would be a better bet?
    Shoemaker likes cholestyramine to bind biotoxins.
    I can't find anything on mucoperm that gives ingredients. I read french and spanish ....so could read literature in that language.
    I'lll keep looking. Apparently, it is used in crhon's (sp?) disease & UC to repair the gut wall.
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yeah, you were right. This cholestyramine is making me sicker than I've ever been before.
    I'm off now. and only took a small dose ...but I guess you need to take it on a schedule..so quantitiy doens't matter.
    How do i make it stop?
    Charcoal and pysllium are not helping.

    ETA: but b12 and some fat in the way of phosphatidly serine is helping!
    hallelujah!

    I think it must have stripped my brain of b12 and maybe bound cholesterol, which I think is needed to make neurotransmitters..

    Wonder why some people can handle it?

    Another $15 down the drain. Not to mention a hellacious 48 hours.
  7. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    maybe try lecithine, which is not very expensive and contains different kinds of phospholipids. Always avoid aspartame its really bad stuff.
  8. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    ok, I will look into that.

    Sadly, I drank gallons of diet coke back in the day before I knew anything about the evils of aspartame. Wonder if that stuff is stuck inside somewhere and what it would take to detox it.
  9. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi AQ,

    may I ask you if you feel like a kind of poisoned as well., I often have this feeling but I dont know what it depends on. I was thinking about if it is the sign of the methylation cycle block at the MSR position so that the homocystein is converted to some sulfur containing byproducts. And this makes me feel like this. this feeling increased the last days and the thing I changed was taking TMG what I took before. So if I shouldnt take TMG to make the cycle run the whole way but this makes me worse, what should I do?

    Did you ever check your ion binding capacity? while ferritin is in the range in may case (but rather low) the binding capacitiy is the lowest result from all the ion test. So ion is needed by MSR i thing and low ion will inhibit this probably as well.
  10. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yes, but there are different reasons why you may feel poisoned and ways to poison yourself.
    It's important to differentiate.

    If you wake up feeling nauseous and toxic, esp. early in the morning, I assume it's toxins that the liver has dumped overnight & they probably exceed your ability to excrete them. Not enough GSH etc.
    So I always use chelators or binders first thing. I keep them by my bed.
    Another trick might be to take something to boost GSH before bed. I use OSR. (it's off the market here in the uS....long story.. but may go on the mkt in other jurisdictions .. I am hoping.)

    I have 2 cbs upregs..and I have really made myself sick FOR DAYs by taking too much liposomal glutathione and maybe too much B6 too. Rich says this is due to cysteine auto oxidising.....I think the ulitmate problem there is ammonia in the brain.
    I think the brain has a finite capacity to clear ammonia.

    There's also the glutamate problem....but that may be slightly different.. more wired than poisoned.

    In a video presentation I saw, Dr dietrich klinghardt said he advises his clients who are doing the KPU protocol to throw every chelator possible at the problem when you're detoxing like crazy.

    dmsa, dmps, microsilica etc.....

    the link to the planet thrive video is on teh HPU/KPU thread....

    hope that helps
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Ok, I see you are asking something a little different thatn what I responeded to.

    My only and best guess is that you are speeding up the flow of intermediates thru the transsulfuration pathway, which can generate too much ammonia and sulfite.

    Depends on your genetic make up of course.... but dr amy yasko recommends molybdenum to convert sulfite to sulfate... and her Ammonia RNA, yucca with meals, low protein diet for ammonia.

    You may want to back off the TMG.. maybe you are pressing too hard on that shortcut gas pedal...
    (rich would tell u we need protein...I would agree.. except I think in the long-timers gut is not digesting food in any useful way.)

    Other ammonia suggestions... non-yasko.... larch arabinogalactan.. and alpha ketoglutarate??

    Not sure that those things cross teh blood brain barrier.. I think it's hard to get ammonia out of the brain & it's really, really awful.....so don't get yrself in that position...

    The RNA might cross the BBB. Don't know,.& it's $85 plus shipping!!

    HTH
  12. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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  13. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Ferritin is low normal
    Iron binding is out of range low.....

    Yasko doesn't like adding iron directly.. it's a virulence factor for gut bugs......

    My gut is a mess..lots of yeast, tons of anaerobic bacterias, some non-pathgenic parasites.
  14. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    HI AQ,

    thanks, I found that I increasingly reacto to sulfur containing products, DMSA, any sulfates, sulfurcontaining stuff like broccoli and so on make me much worse and really pull me down. I was thinking if this is a sign that the Methylation pathway is running too fast probably the short way as I take TMG or it may be still partly block after homocysteine so that the better running cycle let the sulfates more rapidly down the sulfuration pathway. I have borderline raise NH3 so I guess taurine go up also. Some months after I became ill, taurine was a bit low, as cysteine, as methionine. I wouldnt take DMSA, DMPS or any sulfur containing chelator especially if you have CBS upregulation!!
    Yes I was thinking about closing the door for homocysteine to go the way down but theres no chance just reducing B6 (what you need for gaba/glutamate balance) and reducing sulfur. Do you have experience with yucca.
    I mostly feel worse in the morning than in the evening, but Im sure its not always detox its even more sign of beeing poisoned from something I took an didnt know what exactly was in in or some food my body didnt like. my body has developed its own opinion......guess yours too ;-)

    I dont think its cysteine autooxidation as I can take some g of cysteine without getting worse. Its the blocking of SUOX and G6PDH.
  15. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I don't have experience with yucca. I wouldn't say I've found anything that is particularly helpful with ammonia. Still experimenting.
    Yes, amy yasko is big against sulfur-based chelators for those of us who are CBS upregulated.
    I'm not sure what to say about that. If you are mobilising tons of metals you probably want to chelate them, rather than redistributing them, so maybe DMSA is a necessary evil in the short-term.
    Can't say, Haven't tried it yet.
    Honestly, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the biochemistry and I am so far advanced with this illness, that my options are severly proscribed..limited.

    You could try some glutathione to help in the a.m. ..along with some molyb to help process the sulfur containing AAs.
    I also use some catalase and sod enzymes...

    I would say you have a good understanding of what's going on with you.
  16. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi AQ, thanks for your help, I guess we were "cross-writing" yesterday. I can tell you: dont even try one cap of one of these sulfur chelators. I found this from Dr. Amys homepage very helpful: http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/feb-2006-rna-and-methylation.pdf there you can see what blocks G6PDH and SUOX.
    I think that the increased sulfite/sulfate causing a particulary block of the G6PDH causes a NADPH deficiency which further leads to a slowing down of the folate cycle. You can see very good in this graph, that NADPH is need in the folatecycle. A slowing down of the folate cycle leads to a slowing down of the methionine cycle as well, this again increases the flux of the "sulfurs" downwards. This again leads to even more sulfite and so on G6PDH block.
    looking here, http://jn.nutrition.org/content/vol136/issue10/images/large/2653fig1.jpeg
    you can see a graph that shows this clearly. As well what I couldnt see in the Dr. Amy graphs is that serine is needed to convert homocysteine to cystathionine. I never read that Dr. Amy doesnt suggest serine for CBS ups or people with sulfur problems but it makes sense, doesnt it. Ill stop serine for a while so I can "feel" if this lowers sulfuration pathway flux. I dont need a lab test for that. Can you tell me the "catalase" product you take? I have an SOD product as well but I dont know if it helps much.

    What I was thinking about is, if when B12 or M-B12 makes people worse this may be because the folate cycle is still blocked and instead of the conversion homocysteine-methionine homocysteine goes downwards, so giving B12 just helps initially and after some hours the first speeded up methionine cycle is then again blocked and so the flux downwards is increased. Hope you understand what I mean. I often felt first better after B12 or M-B12 and then after some hours worse so this may be a reason if others feel the same.
    I dont know if giving TMG takes the pressure downwards as it speeds up the reaktion as well. So I dont know.
    Do you know when Dr. Amy suggest to ad in DMG if there is TMG still given or stopped and how much is the dosage of DMG? I guess this is no good idea for CBS/SUOX problems.
    I guess I will retry ketoglutarate and I will try arabinogalactan what I didnt so far but have it here. I could start a supplementation shop right now....I guess you as well...

    take care..
  17. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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