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need more methyl (TMG/DMG?) positive results from drinking alcohol? huh?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Star-Anise, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi everyone, I have noticed this quite a few times & was interested to see if anyone had any feedback.
    It used to be that I could not drink alcohol at all. Not sure if from general stress, or major hypoglycemia I would get.
    Anyhow, over the past year I have been able to enjoy the occasional drink of alcohol, and what I have noticed the next day is really quite interesting!

    Background information: I have had quite a lot of success with adding methyl agents via B12, and methylfolate.
    I'm currently @ 2000mcg of B12/day (slowly dissolved sublingually), and 400mg methylfolate. Some days I can manage another dose of methyl B12/folate bringing me up to 3000mcg/600mg respectively.

    My question: After a rare night of having 1-3 drinks of alcohol (usually gin), I feel absolutely amazing the next day! The energy is just wonderful, clarity of mind excellent. I have read that certain alcohols are methyl donors, and this has got me thinking. I'm not able to push the B12/folic acid much more, and when I do I don't get positive results (quite a bit of increased fatigue - detox reactions). Should I be supplementing with some other known methyl donor like DMG (dimethylglycine), or TMG (trimethylglycine), I'm sure if I take up drinking alcohol more regularly the cons will outweight the pros, ha ha ha... I see some people have excellent results with DMG or TMG, and some don't. Does anyone have any feedback about these supplements? Or my interesting results from drinking? :)

    I'm thinking if it isn't the methyl, maybe it's from some increased cortisol from the stress of alcohol? I do have underlying adrenal fatigue...

    Thanks for any feedback that you can throw my way....
    xoxo
  2. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Hi Star
    That's really mysterious but fantastic that you're doing so well! What about supplementing with the other big methyl donor, carnitine fumarate? And are you taking both active B12s?
  3. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Good idea!!!!! I have had positive results with carnitine in past, but needed to d/c when I started up with methylation.
    When you say both active B12 - you mean methylB12 and adenosyl?
    Thanks for your feedback!
    p.s. nice to see another canuck on here :)
  4. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Yes, those B12s.
    p.s. likewise :)
  5. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @helen1 I haven't tried the adenosyl, but certainly have been following the info up on this site in regards to adenosylB12, is it part of your regimen? S:)
  6. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Yes, I'm taking freddd's 'quartet' plus the co-factors. Since taking carnitine fum. at the right time I've had a noticeable improvement. It needs to be taken 30 mins before food or 2 hrs after. I'd been taking it about an hour after food but as soon as I switched to 30 mins before, I've been mostly symptom-free for half the day (or more) for two weeks now. I do get signs of folate drain in the afternoon so I then take extra mfolate and that works for a few hours. The adB12 helps with mitochondrial function.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  7. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Hey @Star-Anise ,
    I don't have your reaction to alcohol at all! But I have tried DMG and TMG. I am BHMT-08 +/+ (I notice you're hetero for it). The DMG was bad news; I found myself pounding on the piano instead of playing it. TMG is totally different; it's not a very big effect, but I do feel a little better taking it. I take 2 x 500 mg with food.
    Good luck with it!
    Star-Anise likes this.
  8. Milford

    Milford

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    Helen, could you explain what you mean by... Getting signs of methyl drain.....thanks.
    Anne
  9. veronica_corningstone

    veronica_corningstone

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    Curcumin and theanine (green tea) are two other methyl donors that you could try. Yasko has a product, MethylMax, which contains these two and more, but it's out of stock now.

    Since starting my methylation protocol (Yasko simplified), I've been able to tolerate some alcohol. I rarely go above one because then it messes with my sleep (I already have high nighttime cortisol). But when I do have two or three, I don't get the horrible hangover feeling that used to kick in soon after consuming any alcohol which would last for at least 24 hours.

    I can't wait to hear the results of your continued experimentation, @Star-Anise !
  10. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @Milford: At the moment I'm concluding that's what it is because it goes away when I take extra mfolate. There are many symptoms of low folate, just like low B12. Mine are a feeling of excessive heaviness of the arms, wobbly legs, an overwhelming desire to lie down and a plummeting mood.
    Freddd has posted long lists of symptoms of what he calls paradoxical folate deficiency, with angular cheilitis standing out as one symptom a number of people have commented on, as well as potassium deficiency caused by what he calls healing responses. I think methylation working.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
    Milford likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Helen,

    Here is the list for convenience. It has been very helpful to a lot of people, including me. Each person has their personal typical 3 or 4 symptoms that show up in a sequence or together. I used to have to get farther down the list before realizing it. I have cut my recognition time for potassium to notice the tendency to want to spasm a day before the actual spasms start. With the folate deficiency I start putting on water a day before the cheilitis area begins to feel wrong. The recognition of these things improves with practice. I have gotten very stable since removing the excess b1, b2 and b3.

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
    Old symptoms returning

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily


    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  12. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Thanks @Freddd. What were your signs of too much B1,B2,B3?
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Helen,

    Each of them affect the amount of potassium lost and Metafolin needed in some sort of complex arrangement. I had an insatiable need for potassium and Metafolin and healing stopped. I was taking an extra 100mg of each b1, b2 and b3 daily. I needed more potassium than I could tolerate, I needed more Metafolin than I could afford or my stomach could tolerate and the healing stopped at the same time.,
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  14. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Freddd do you find that methylation/healing stops as well with too little potassium? sorry if redundant. but just amazed at addition of small amount of potassium chloride which I seem to be able to tolerate more than potassium citrate. it's like my brain just turned on, & I'm feeling/thinking the same as I was prior to getting sick?! :) thanks for all your uber, awesome support throughout these forums Freddd xoxo.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Star-Anise,

    do you find that methylation/healing stops as well with too little potassium?

    Not exactly. While one starts being possibly quite ill and the heart and muscles and brain can malfunction and even cause a person to die, it doesn't stop the methylation. Lack of potassium causes functional breakdowns very quickly. Cell formation is slower to start and slower to stop. The demand for potassium continues from cell formation even while muscles and heart stop contracting correctly and mood and personality changes.

    Low potassium has all sorts of symptoms and some start very quickly and some don't and that varies from person to person.
  16. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Freddd thanks for your feedback. yes the mood & personality changes are just amazing that I'm experiencing with the potassium chloride supplementation versus the citrate. Improved mood, somewhat teary, but overall anxiety has calmed down, and my whole system is much more relaxed. wowzas. now I'm going to look @ intro the other two of quartet the adenosyl B12, and carnitine fumarate to help seal the deal in regards to energy. Is the fumarate form of the carnitine important versus other forms that one can find carnitine in? And with respect to adenosyl, I see one can get oral capsules or liquid. Do you know if one is preferential? Thanks again. xoxo
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    The best we have found of AdoCbl is the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex in a capsule, then sprinked out olong the lower lip and gum, hold for an hour or more.. The fumarate is what works for about 90% of us for who it makes a difference. For the other 10% it is ALCAR. So if the fumarate works right off, great. Otherwise the ALCAR needs to be trialed. For some reason a combo didn't work at all for me. Also, the AdoCbl needs to be started first. Because of anxiety, the LCF titration ought to start very small, maybe with the liquid where you can use a drop or less at a time. and build up.
    helen1 and Star-Anise like this.
  18. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @Critterina Hi there! Thanks for your feedback re: TMG, I have the bottle, and am considering trying a tiny dose. Can you elaborate with what it has helped with. I've been researching away re:TMG, and I'm finding a hard time figuring out what exactly it does. Would it support the "short" path as Yasko speaks about via BHMT, as I have several of those snps? The part I'm confused about is that I thought it was undesirable to support that path, or is the problem that our bodies used to/can rely exclusively on that path?
    Thanks for your support, so very much appreciated :)
    S
  19. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Hi Star,

    I don't feel any difference from TMG, but I understand that it lowers homocysteine if your BHMT pathway is slow. The only BHMT SNP with a real significant impact is the 08, as far as I can tell, but I did not do the research myself.

    When would it be good to support or not support this pathway? That's a good question, and I know I don't have the knowledge to give a 'real' answer. Not that that will stop me from thinking about it! So, this is what I think: It's good to have both pathways working, for recycling homocysteine to methionine. Methionine, I read, is half dietary, half recycled homocysteine. So, first we want to be sure that the methionine is in a normal range. If not, we can add it to our diets or try to recycle more homocysteine (if we have enough). If homocysteine is high, we want to lower it, because there are bad health consequences associated with that. I don't know how that works, if it's actually the high homocysteine that cause the bad health consequences, or if it's just a correlate, in which case lowering it may or may not have the desired effect. But say you want to lower it. Homocysteine goes three ways - through MTR, BHMT, which recycle it, or CBS, which takes it out of the methyl cycle.

    I think you may have been asking about this:
    homocysteine + TMG --> (in the presence of BHMT)--> Methionine + DMG
    I'm not sure that's totally correct, but that's what I understand. And when your BHMT is lazy (you have one or more 08 mutations, that is), adding TMG changes the equilibrium to push the reaction to the left, even in spite of the lazy BHMT.

    So when would it NOT be good to support this BHMT pathway with TMG? Heartfixer says only when people are sensitive to methyl donors. Makes sense to me. What does Yasko say about it? Give me a reference if you would, Star; I don't follow her very closely, as I get frustrated coming away with more questions than I started with when I read her stuff.

    So, truth be told, I've stopped using TMG and methionine. Last April my methionine was low and homocysteine was not high (lowest quintile). In July my methionine was normal (lowest quintile) and homocysteine was not measured. Recently, I was under the impression that my protein absorption had improved (although I just had a low creatinine result, so that was a bad assumption).

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