Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
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Need advice re: variety of probiotics (now that I can tolerate honey kombucha)...?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Bansaw, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    I tried few a few years to tolerate milk kefir (raw and regular), and I tried water kefir, and regular kombucha (sugar fermented).
    Most of them made me feel lightheaded and slightly more fatigued.

    However, I discovered that I can tolerate well Honey Kombucha (aka Jun), and am having a good time with that.
    My question is: now that I can tolerate honey-fermented probiotics, can you recommend any other types of honey ferement that I can try?
    I know that variety is key to repopulating the gut. I am guessing that soil-based bacteria is also important.
     
  2. MastBCrazy

    MastBCrazy

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    Toronto, ON
    While I risk of being off topic with your post, these are my thoughts on your thread title, though I can't offer advice...

    I have avoided fermented products as I react to the majority of them. This coupled with an innate respect for wild (or tamed) fungi. I've had a bad SBO reaction (Prescript assist) - the product of my hubris. {medicine for one, poison for another is my ear-worm}.

    So, for probiotics, I prefer consistent, known, numbered, studied organisms. On that basis, I am thankful I was so well advised when prescribed this bifido combo years ago:
    L. gasseri (ks-13)
    Bifid. Longum subsp. Longum (MM-2)
    Bifid. Bifidum (G9-1)

    I take mine by mouth daily. I also supplement using periodic probiotic washes/seeding (only do under treatment direction from a knowledgeable pro).

    This combo has helped keep my digestive system reasonable.

    I thought I had seen more pubmed articles than these two, looking at the effect on seasonal allergies, and Cytokine profiles in older adults. I do find that it helps with some of my less concerning ENT allergic symptoms.

    In the OMF symposium today, I think one presenter mentioned bifidos as suited to CFS. I can't recall if it was Maureen Hansen or Mark Davis?

    Pre-PEM hyper-clarity (up to 25% of normal?) is yielding to the fog. Until a useful brain returns, adieu.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  3. echobravo

    echobravo Keep searching, the answer is out there

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    Norway
    Before starting to eat a lot of fermented foods be aware that they can contain histamines. Symptoms like fatigue and lightheadedness could be from an increased histamine load I would guess, so maybe worth checking out.

    Also, someone mentioned here that they had found that Kimchi has less histamines than other fermented foods.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    Isaiah 58:11 likes this.
  4. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    here are some of my notes on probiotics for the histamine-challenged... a lot of advice says to consume a broad spectrum of probiotics, but I found that this doesn't work b/c the broad probiotics strain capsules always have lots of histamine producing strains..

    --
    Probiotics for reducing histamine
    (either breaks down histamine or down-regulates receptors):
    • B LONGUM / B INFANTIS (eg Align)
    • L PLANTARUM (eg jarrow ideal)
    • L RHAMNOSUS (eg culturelle)
    honorable mention: soil based organisms (eg prescript assist)
    > I haven't read that these actually help break down histamine or help w inflammation, but they don't create histamine either.. Also, they've been helpful killing stomach bugs, which was a big problem for me for a while.

    ==L PLANTARUM
    https://selfhacked.com/2016/09/11/health-benefits-l-plantarum/

    L. Plantarum has significant antioxidant activities and also helps to maintain the intestinal permeability.[3] It is able to suppress the growth of gas producing bacterium in the intestines and may have benefit in some patients who suffer from IBS.[4] Lactobacillus plantarum has been found in experiments to increase hippocampalbrain derived neurotrophic factor which means L. plantarum may have a beneficial role in the treatment of depression.[5] The ability of L. plantarum to survive in the human gastro-intestinal tract makes it a possible in vivo delivery vehicle for therapeutic compounds or proteins.


    ==L RHAMNOSUS
    https://selfhacked.com/2016/09/08/l-rhamnosus/
    While L. rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) is able to survive the acid and bile of the stomach and intestine[6] and is claimed to colonize the digestive tract and to balance intestinal microflora, evidence suggests that Lactobacillus rhamnosus is likely a transient inhabitant, and not autochthonous.[7] Regardless, it is considered a probiotic useful for treatment of various maladies, as it works on many levels. However, most of the molecular mechanisms are not known.
    Diarrhea[edit]
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG has been shown beneficial in the prevention of rotavirus diarrhea in children. The prevention and treatment of various types of diarrhea has been shown both in children and in adults.[8][9][10][11]
    Respiratory Tract Infections[edit]
    L. rhamnosus GG has also been associated with a reduction in the risk of respiratory tract infections in children.[12][13]
    Atopic Dermatitis[edit]
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG has also shown potential in treatment and primary prevention of atopic dermatitis, but the results of intervention trials have been mixed.[14] A clinical trial with seven-year follow-up shows L. rhamnosus GG is useful in the prevention of atopic dermatitis in children at high risk of allergy.[15][16]
    Urogenital Tract[edit]
    The clinical health effects of L. rhamnosus GG have been widely studied. Both L. rhamnosus GG and L. rhamnosus GR-1 appear to protect the urogenital tract by excreting biosurfactants to inhibit the adhesion of vaginal and urinary pathogens.[citation needed]
    Intestinal tract permeability[edit]
    L. rhamnosus has been found to reduce intestinal permeability in children who suffer from irritable bowel syndrome,[17] and also it has been found to counter alcohol related intestinal permeability.[18][19]
    Gastrointestinal Carriage of VRE[edit]
    In 2005, L. rhamnosus GG was first successfully used to treat gastrointestinal carriage of vancomycin-resistant enterococcus (VRE) in renal patients.[20]
    Anxiety[edit]
    Research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on August 29, 2011 reported this bacterium may have an effect on GABA neurotransmitter receptors. Mice that were fed L. rhamnosus had less anxiety and had different levels of a brain-chemical sensor and stress hormones.[21]
    Risks[edit]
    The use of Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG for probiotic therapy has been linked with very rare cases of sepsis in certain risk groups, primarily those immunocompromised or infants.[22] Ingestion of L. rhamnosus GG is, nevertheless, considered to be safe, and data from Finland show a significant growth in the consumption of L. rhamnosus GG at the population level has not led to an increase in the number of Lactobacillusbacteraemiacases.[23]
     
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  5. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    thanks, .... but with me I don't think its histamine. This is because I don't react to honey kombucha, and I don't react to capsule-probiotics.
    I think with me, its the leftover sugar and lactose (in milk kefir).
    Thats why I'm looking for honey ferments. (I don't react to kimchi either).
     
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  6. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Is it possible to cultivate your own L.Rhamnosus. What is a reliable source of this strain. Or would you go with store bought capsules?
     
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  7. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I just buy it... Personally, I don't want to cultivate something, not having any way to test the product
     
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  8. Isaiah 58:11

    Isaiah 58:11

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    A Sun-Scorched Land
    Rhamnosus is a thermophilic yogurt culture so, in theory, you should be able to to make a single strain yogurt out of it.

    I tried it once on its own, with another probiotic, and with a mesophilic starter. The single culture seemed ok with the first batch but I never tried to keep it going. The probiotic mix was over-cultured and separated so if you try this try using less than one full capsule and/or less culturing time.

    My concern with the mixes is that without the ability to analyze, it is entirely possible the rhamnosus was out- competed and I would never know it.

    At its price, though, it is worth trying to culture it again. I have been saving the last capsule to try again with something other than dairy, but I have no idea what else would work.
     

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