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Need a Manganese for dummies guide: why am I WIRED?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by South, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. South

    South Senior Member

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    Since last summer, I have on occasion tried taking manganese (not magnesium) - and was surprised with the results.

    I first took it last summer because I have very loose ligaments (noted by several healthcare practitioners), and read that manganese is needed for ligament health. I got WIRED, by the next day. A dramatic different in energy (I do not have ME/CFS, but do often have moderately low energy, along with POTS and other odd things). This wiredness was not the "tired but wired" thing people talk about, I had that years ago, and know what that feels like. Nope, this was straight up "give me all your chores I'll do them for you" wired. I had to take benadryl to sleep at night during these wired days.

    Not making the connection last summer, I had continued the manganese for about a week. I spent most of that week last summer trying to figure out if some change in diet had caused the wiredness (long term candida sufferer, I tend to blame diet too quickly for feeling bad). After I stopped the manganese, the wiredness took days to dissipate.

    Since then, every few months I've tried it again. Usually the same results. Why only "usually" - well, the one thing that might prevent the wiredness from happening from the manganese is if I eat sulfited foods in excess (dried apricots, in my case). I just noticed that this week.

    On the Doctor's Data website there's this page: http://www.doctorsdata.com/methylation.pdf

    Can anyone give me a dummies summary - help? I haven't been able to get genetic testing done yet.

    The Doctor's Data document has only two mentions of "manganese":

    The first is that SUOX requires manganese, B12, molybdenum, and boron. In the past, I've tried B12 and/or the mineral called molybdenum, and never got energy from them. (and the B12 was Freddd's recommended Enzymatic Therapy brand, still no change in energy).

    It says that SUOX is taxed by sulfites, and that sulfites lower manganese levels, BUT the symptoms it lists for sulfite sensitivity do not fit me: reflux, for example, (I never get reflux). All the times over the years that I have eaten the apricots, I never got any change in energy, until this week when they seemed to prevent the energy boost that manganese may have otherwise given.

    But the document also says people with inhibited SUOX have reactions to perfumes - I very much have this problem, and have for years. I carefully avoid being around perfumes. Over the years, I only indulged in the dried apricots about once a month, and those are the only food sources of sulfites for me, so I don't think I can blame sulfites for my perfume allergies, which are constant. So now I have no idea what to think about SUOX.

    The other place in the document that talks about manganese is in connection to BHMT. It mentions "increased gastrointestinal symptoms" from BHMT problems. What gastrointestinal symptoms do they mean?

    I have one hair test but don't think it isn't valid - it fits the Cutler description for mercury problems which derange mineral output into hair. I'll pursue chelation in the future.

    As for methylation in general, methyl donors do not make me wired when I have tried them as single supplements. And MB12 done via Freddd's protocol did not change my energy, and neither did Methylfolate.

    Manganese, you have me stumped.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
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  2. UM MAN

    UM MAN Senior Member

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    Manganese helps stabilize mast cells..... POTS can be histamine triggered
     
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  3. South

    South Senior Member

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    @UM MAN Thanks - I then looked up mast cell disorders to see what other symptoms are, I have some of them but those that I have are symptoms of so many other possible disorders. And one glaring symptom it lists, hives, I have never had. Not sure what to make of this.
     
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Manganese and Magnesium are electrically similar (divalent cation) and can be substituted in many enzymatic reactions. Both are deficient in ME/CFS. If you are supplementing Mn and having these symptoms, they do suggest that you are meeting, at least temporarily a demand for this nutrient, but there is clearly a biochemical anomaly. You very well may also be deficient in Mg, which is the most important mineral involved in energy metabolism. Sorry laptop battery is dead. Will have to write later.
     
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  5. South

    South Senior Member

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    Hi Vegas, I use topical (applied to skin) magnesium oil daily, and have for over a year. In the past I have taken magnesium supplements swallowed, and had experimented with various forms (citrate, malate, etc). None of this ever gave me any reaction though. I continue to use the topical magnesium oil, but I don't notice anything overt from it. Unlike the manganese, which causes something very overt!

    Another idea is that of copper problems. On the web there are a few theories about people with too much copper, and theories that manganese removes copper. Symptoms of too much copper fit me very well, but they are symptoms that could also be other things. These info sources are very few, and not backed up by much, so I'm undecided there. The people who have undergone a copper lowering program talk about temporary side effects while on the program, but their side effects are never "increased energy", like I get, and I'm not getting the side effects that they get.

    The description people here on the methylation forum have for the word "wired" (not wired and tired), when they stumble on something that raises their methylation really fits what I'm experiencing with the manganese.
    Yet I don't know why.:sleep:
     
  6. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @South Manganese can make me wired like that too.
    Through Dr. Yasko's readings I learned that it is involved in supporting dopamine and acetylcholine production (awake neurotransmitters). Increased dopamine can lead to increased Norepinephrine (adrenaline).
    It might not be the whole story, but it made sense to me because I was responding similarly to other supplements that support dopamine production as well like Tyrosine. So I removed all of them from my routine. I now rely on molybdenum to support sulphur & ammonia detox because the manganese became too agitating.

    In your case I would question whether you need more support for dopamine in general or are deficient in manganese. I remember when I first started supplementing with it, I had a very similar response. It was like my body was full of energy. Try a significantly reduced daily dose and see where that goes is my advice. Something that is not going to give you so much energy that you can't sleep & get agitated.


    From Yasko:

    Manganese might also be supporting your Kreb's cycle that is responsible for energy production.

    I agree with your theory of sulfites = reduced manganese effectiveness, but I would just take less of manganese in a daily dose, instead of using sulfites to bring you down.

    Hope that helps,
     
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  7. South

    South Senior Member

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    @Star-Anise Oh I'm not planning on using sulfites habitually to counter the effects of too much manganese, don't you worry!

    Acetylcholine, now we are getting somewhere:
    Last summer I started taking phosphatidylcholine. That foray into taking phosphatidylcholine resulted in, you guessed it, wiredness - and it is a supplement known to "support acetylcholine". I backed off on it, then slowly added it by partial capsules. Now I can take up to 2 caps of phosphatidylcholine a day without wiredness.

    And, a year or so ago, I had the same experience with fish oil: taking more than a tiny bit resulted in wiredness. I keep my dose on fish oil fairly low to this day, from the bad memory of lack of sleep from too much of it in the past. And, fish oil supports acetylcholine, according to some websites.

    A few days ago I started again with the manganese, this time using it on my skin, topically, instead of swallowing it. I figured with my history of extreme response to swallowed manganese, might as well find out if using it topically does or does not absorb into the blood (since I'm a perfect guinea pig for that). Result: applying the contents of a whole capsule of manganese to my skin still results in hyperactive wiredness later - so, manganese does in fact absorb through the skin.

    And yesterday and today I lowered the dose to using only 1/4 capsule applied to my skin - result, no wiredness. I think this is my dose for now, low enough to hopefully slowly correct a deficiency, yet not so much that it causes the wiredness. I'll probably keep doing it topically instead of going back to swallowing it, since my gut has enough other issues to deal with without having to digest another supplement.

    Things that support dopamine never do anything for me, (like tyrosine), I think the acetylcholine idea is much more likely in my case. Thanks much for the ideas Star!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
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  8. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @South sounds like you are onto something. I may have to take a similar approach, hmmm....
    Star:thumbsup:
     
  9. South

    South Senior Member

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    @Star-Anise I just today noticed a typo (I think) where you called norepinephrine "adrenalin". It actually isn't adrenalin - maybe you were thinking of noradrenalin, which is the european name for norepinephrine.

    I used to confuse these, so I wanted future googlers and visitors to this page to not have to go through the confusion on that like I did once in the past. Wikipedia has been my friend at many such times!
     
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  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Star, Molybdenum is one of those that I think I respond favorable to but not sure. I recently changed brands to KAL @ 250MCG. The largest dose I had taken before was 150mcg country life and twinlab.

    Anyway this KAL is not having a favorable GI response for me. Basically without too much detail things get watery. Do you think that might be something that I could just push though? Maybe a detox reaction to the higher dose?

    Thanks
     
  11. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @sregan Sorry about my late response, for some reason I haven't been getting email alerts...
    Hmmmm, if it is just a bit watery, I would likely continue. I noticed that stuff in that department definitely had it's fluctuations as I have been proceeding with my program. I would even be ok with the occasional "dumping" symptoms, which I have been having periodically lately as well.
    S;)
     

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