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Nearly 2 months into Freddd's Protocol - Ammonia & Other Problems

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by picante, Dec 7, 2014.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Hello again, dear friends. I started Freddd's protocol Oct. 13th, and got some excellent help. Background info here, first post: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/questions-after-3-weeks-on-freddds-protocol.33580/.

    I'm still in the hiccupy, roller coaster period @sueami described on that thread. The bottom of my roller coaster seems to be a lot of ammonia brain, and now I have the 23andme results to prove it. I get the other end, too (my brain in overdrive), and I am suspecting high glutamate.
    Part of the ammonia problem:
    NOS2 rs2274894 TT = +/+
    NOS2 rs2248814 AA = +/+
    NOS2 rs3729508 TT = +/+​
    Impaired glutamate-GABA conversion:
    GAD1 rs12185692 AA = +/+​
    And low phosphorylcholine:
    PEMT r27946 TT = +/+​

    I'm confused as to how to get a handle on the ammonia problem. Re methylation, I ramped up to 3 doses per day:
    1000 mcg meB12 + 2500 mcg AdoB12
    along with 3.5 - 5 mg/day of methylfolate, plus potassium, plus various co-factors.​
    Then my B12 oils arrived from Australia, and 2 days ago I switched over to the oils, but I have no clue how to compare doses; I'm just following Greg's directions and trying 1-2 pumps/day, still experimenting.

    I'm taking several things to reduce ammonia: L-carnitine (liquid), ionic molybdenum, ionic manganese (high ammonia depletes it), silica gel, zinc, and OKG (ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate). I was taking Na-K-Butyrate, but stopped when I got my EBV antibody test results (sky high).

    Should I be taking BH4? Or something to help me produce it?

    And how do I stop producing so much ammonia? I don't know what to eat anymore. I'm off dairy & wheat, and thiols have been causing me some problems, so I'm being cautious with them. I've eaten a lot of bison for years (it's a Montana native), but now that's driving up my ammonia levels.

    Thank you kindly. Your suggestions & encouragement are precious.
     
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  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Things that helped me were:
    • sodium bicarbonate baths
    • magnesium oxide (100mg with my morning dose of B compl, 100mg with my afternoon dose, 400mg before bed - but I titrated up slowly this bedtime dose) - I think MgO helps especially if you have high endogenous Taurine
    • digestive enzymes before eating meat (protease, bromelain, pepsin)
    • molybdenum did't really helped since it increases uric acid ; a little manganese definetly helped ; organic silica 2x weekly has been helping
    • Saccharomyces boulardii helped some (I try not to take too much of it since I suspect it reduces the diversity of the gut flora - keep it at 2x weekly alternating with an acidophilus-free prob)
    • Royal Jelly (BH4?) never really helped
    • Lysine helped some, biotin might help as well (catabolic action)
    Hope this helps!

    Edited to add that charcoal (and possibly psyllium too) helps in an emergency
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    sregan and picante like this.
  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Southeast
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  5. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland thank you so much for all these suggestions! I'm going to try a bath with sodium bicarbonate + magnesium chloride (Ancient Minerals Mg flakes) now, since I don't have Mg Oxide on hand.

    My taurine was extremely elevated on a urine amino acids test (10 years ago, when I was attempting mercury chelation). I'm thinking that would be taurine wasting, rather than high taurine in my body. What do you think?

    I also found out from 23andme testing that I have the VDR Bsm +/+ mutation, and increased my vitamin D (from 5000 to 10,000 IU/day). I'm going to back it down to see if my guts & brain start feeling better (it's olive oil based, but it does contain gelatin).
     
  6. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Watch out for gelatin if you're susceptible to glutamates. I have a very strong glutamate response to gelatin. Any gelatin supplements I take, I bite and suck back the innards in my mouth then discard the gel shell.
     
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  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Helena, MT USA
    I'm not sure, either -- thanks for the link. It may apply, although I don't have any CBS mutations according to the 5 reports I've run, LOL. (23andme doesn't seem to test for CBSN12N -- it comes up as "NF" on the reports.)

    I'm taking L-malic acid in capsule form and tolerating it fine. Would you think I need more than 500 mg?

    I'm also tolerating B6 (P5P).

    Looking at that chart, I'm reminded that I'm still taking liquid L-carnitine without the fumarate. Perhaps I need to add in the fumarate.
     
  8. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Wow, what a great suggestion!
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Can't vouch for the chloride. I wouldn't use it since the chloride increases the acidity and might neutralize the bicarb benefits. I used 1/2 - 2/3 cup of bicarb in the bathtub and stayed in there for 15-20 min when things were really bad. BEFORE the bath I tested my urine with pH strips and it was 4.5-5.0 (very acidic). SO I went for the bath.
    It was probably wasting. I think MgO might work well for you too.
    Be careful if you have autoimmunity.
    That's how I take my Gamma E :thumbsup: I think gelatin causes vit B1 wasting for me.
    50mg did nothing for me, 100mg was intolerable (racemic). I am gonna try it again at 100mg.
    Any B6 intake is supposed to be accompanied by at least the same amount of magnesium.
     
  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I'll try that tonight before the bath, since I have pH strips. But would high ammonia make it more alkaline?
    Yes, Hashimoto's - TPO antibodies. I'm on T3 and lots of selenium.
    That's tiny compared to what I'm taking. Is that intolerance from CBS troubles?
    Thanks. I'm taking transdermal magnesium, about 62 mg each night. The B6 is 50 mg, but I'm not taking it every day.
     
  11. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    VDR Bsm has very little impact. Unless your blood levels say otherwise, I wouldn't think it warrants a high dose of Vitamin D.
     
  12. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Really? Can you direct me to more info? I've been looking and looking!
     
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I've had horrid reactions to several enzyme formulas in the past. I think it's been the ones with protease. I had SOIM (Sudden-Onset Intolerable Mood, i.e., tearing my hair out) in a couple cases and sharp abdominal pains in another case.
    Has anyone ever heard of either side-effect?
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I wish a biochemist would chime in here since I don't know the explanation. In my case I was eliminating excess uric acid.
    Taking 3,000 iu of vit D for 3 months doubled my anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. They went back to the 800+ 1 month after stopping the D. Since you already have thyroid support in place perhaps it will be fine.
    I have the BH4 double whammy (see caledonia's SNPs guide) with only one CBS +/-, 2x BHMT +/- and MTHFR A1298C. It makes perfect sense with my reactions. I feel worse if I cut high sulfur foods from my diet, but the combo of these 3 SNPs is very likely causing me ammonia build up (perhaps that's why the urine was acidic - the ammonia stays IN).
    That's good. I never felt well on 50-60mg of B6. The longest I took it was around 30-40mg, and lately only 10mg P5P. BTW I managed to lower my homocysteine with Paleo diet and mB12. From 13+ to 7 with diet and to 6.+ with mB12. Then I took mFolate, had to stop all supps and it wnet a bit higher again.
    At what dose? :eek:
    Today was my 2nd day with these enzymes (30mg of each). Yesterday I felt very clear minded and worry-less after lunch, and today felt fine too, but a little bitchy :p :wide-eyed:
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I should also add that despite many benefits reported by scientific studies, I always see mixed report from people taking it. I think these dould be some factors to take into consideration:
    http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/too-much-vitamin-d/
     
    picante likes this.
  16. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Links to the research is at http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1544410 , but the summary at the top is rather oversimplifying things. While it's true that some studies show small increased risk of bone-related issues for +/+, other studies show exactly the opposite, with -/- being the risk factor, or even more implausibly claiming that + is a risk factor but not +/+ or -/-.

    Basically it has a small effect, and research generally shows it going both ways, with a bit more research in favor of +/+ being the down-regulation. Hence it really shouldn't warrant mega-dosing vitamin D.

    Links to a list of other VDR SNPs tested by 23andMe which have an impact are at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-vdr-variations.24480/ . Generally speaking, it's going to be the missense mutations which have a big impact, not the synonymous mutations like VDR Bsm where the protein created by the gene isn't altered at all.
     
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  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    It's been years, but whatever dose the bottle recommended. Here's my notes:

    "Supplements/drugs that triggered sudden-onset intolerable moods (SOIM)
    • DMSA (1st or 2nd day)
    • Enzyme formulas (2nd dose): mood reaction or sharp abdominal pain. I can tolerate lipase by itself.
    • Nystatin (sporadically)
    • Betaine hydrochloride (1 dose)
    • Lifelink brand DHEA (1 dose)
    • Zymex (kills candida)
    • Alpha Lipoic Acid (3rd day)"
    If it goes beyond bitchy and into intense frustration, dear @Gondwanaland, you can blame it on the protease, LOL!!
     
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  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Will keep an eye on it, thanks for the heads up :thumbsup:
     
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I add malic acid to the bicarb baths. this has been an extraordinary fix for my ammonia issues. I learned of it on the thread linked above by sregan.
     
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  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Is your malic acid in powder form?
     

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