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Naviaux study & OAT Panel: Fumonisins inhibit sphingolipid production

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by picante, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Happy New Year to everybody! I'm looking for people who understand Naviaux et al's analysis of sphingolipid problems, and I want to know if anyone else has noticed this connection:

    I've just gotten my OAT results from Great Plains, showing a high level of tricarballylic acid (the 9th metabolite on the list). The explanation says that this could be from fumonisins, a group of mycotoxins found in corn. (Well, sigh! I avoid anything corn-based like the plague because these foods & vitamins make my guts miserable.)

    But this is the part that got my attention:
    Next I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumonisin_B1#Toxicodynamics
    So that brings us to Naviaux et al's observation that their ME/CFS study group has impaired sphingolipid metabolism.

    Are some of us suffering from fumonisin toxicity? Or could our tricarballylic acid be high for some other reason, having to do with Naviaux's sphingolipid analysis?
    Do Naviaux et al even mention tricarballylic acid in their paper? Is it something they measured?
     
  2. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Not sure about the rest RN, @picante, but neither Naviaux's paper nor his supplementary materials mention tricarballylic acid.
     
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  3. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Thanks, Jaime.
     
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  4. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I wonder if glucomannan would be worth a shot for this?
     
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  5. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Sounds like maybe it would:
    http://www.newhealthoptions.org/?page_id=619
     
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  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    As it turns out, I have a bottle of Jarrow Saccharomyces boulardii, which has MOS added (200 mg/cap). I suppose I'll give it a try again. It didn't seem to achieve anything when I was taking it last December-to-April.

    Edit: Well, that was fun! It gave me gut cramps taking it 15 minutes after dinner. I guess I'll try it between meals next time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  7. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    @picante I'm interested in this one. My son also had high tricarballylic acid in his OATS test (urine), but the commentary in Australia was quite different:

     
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  8. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    I can't tolerate the Saccharomyces. I've tried, but it's a no-go.
     
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  9. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Do you remember what sort of reaction it gives you?
     
  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I did a search and found your lab was Nutripath. The sample report I found has tricarballylic acid under Bacterial/Dysbiosis Markers.

    My report from Great Plains Lab has it under Yeast and Fungal Markers. The whole quote from the Interpretation section:
    That last sentence may explain why I haven't been tolerating methylfolate. It makes me depressed.
     
  11. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    @picante Thank you for this.

    We start with a new doctor next month, and this is one thing I'll be following up on.

    Your is probably more current than mine. I don't have a lot of confidence in the Australian lab's interpretations.

    In this comment of yours:
    I would have thought it would increase your mfolate need, or are you saying it makes you ultrasensitive?

    My son doesn't really tolerate much B1. He can take it, but he just feels poorly on the stuff. It seems to slow everything down.
     
  12. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I would need a lot more information to know what's doing it, but I am ultrasensitive to mfolate. Methyl donors of all kinds are something I have to be careful with. I don't think methyl B12 falls into that category, though. It doesn't act like a methyl donor given my reactions; it acts like a user of methyl groups. I seem to have low histamine a lot of the time, though (according to my labs and symptoms).
    Just to be clear, fumonisin B1 is just a label for a variety of fumonisin. AFAIK, it has nothing to do with thiamine.
     
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    B1 has to be balanced with enough potassium, and vice-versa.
    http://charles_w.tripod.com/kandthiamin.html
     
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  14. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    More shortness of breath and some neurological symptoms, like dizziness and exhaustion. I think. It's been awhile.

    FWIW, I have issues with all kinds of fungi, including yeasts and mushrooms. Brewer's yeast is the only one where I don't keel over. ;)
     
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  15. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    :oops: Thanks for clearing that up!

    Corn and corn syrup isn't a big part of our diet - we eat a standard old-fashioned Australian diet with nothing in the way of processed food or anything I can find with corn syrup. I've read that corn is a bigger part of the US diet than it is here - maybe that's why your interpretation focuses on it more as a source of tricarballylic acid?

    Mycotoxins are a bit of an issue in the grains industry under some weather conditions (humid/rain during ripening/harvest) or poor storage conditions.

    Hmmm, maybe the test at https://www.vcstest.com/ thing (based on Shoemaker's approach) might pick up on that?
     
  16. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    ....you wouldn't be the first Australian to tell me that. ;) I avoid corn products, too, but it's true that there's corn syrup in many processed foods in the US. Food companies are edging back because "high fructose corn syrup" was a pretty big deal. Now they're campaigning to just call it fructose so no one will know it's made of corn! At least, last I heard. Not sure they'll get away with that, given that corn is a pretty common allergen and food sensitivity.
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Gaaaah! We have so little right to know!
    No doubt. But I looked up fumonisins, and they're in a lot of grains, including rice and oats. There are standards for fumonisin levels in animal feed, and I saw that the levels permissible for poultry are much higher than those for beef and pork and other meats. This may explain why I haven't been tolerating chicken. Every time I eat it, I get ammonia-smelling urine and severe brain slowdown/fog.
     
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  18. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    We don' eat anything much with additives any more anyway, but this?
    Soooo annoying. How are we supposed to know?

    By the way, I'd never even seen a fresh corn cob until some farmer brought them into a local market when I was in late high school. Corn just didn't feature in a region that grew wheat and sheep.

    Maybe I'll keep better notes about where we buy our chicken - the butcher's chicken is 'free range' (which can mean slightly less caged), and supermarket chicken isn't.
     
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  19. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Corn is hidden in a lot of food additives, it goes by over 100 names... cornallergygirl has a pretty good list of additives on her website.

    Worse is that it's hidden in many supplements and also in a surprising number of drugs and medical products .... I'm allergic and have found it in ascorbic acid, methyl B12 from most compounding pharmacies, levothyroxine, antibiotics, dextrose IV bags, etc.

    Additionally, if it's grown with glyphosate, it can inhibit mitochondrial function...
     
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