The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Naviaux et. al.: Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by A.B., Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Yes looking at the overall paper they stated that the disrupted pathways were FAD dependent and that in turn was disease dependent. This could simply indicate their subjects had either chronic infection, or chronic immune activation.

    I wonder how this compares with simple B2 deficiency? I also noticed the subjects showed low Uric Acid - could that be downstream of most of us taking Vitamin C?
     
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  2. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I agree the body changes response when a situation goes from acute to chronic. E.g. Thyroid output raises in acute illness but lowers in chronic illness.
     
  3. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    My first thought too Alex both on reading the cholesterol and Uric Acid data. Also way too many patients from one clinic.
     
  4. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    He's a a psychiatrist, expecting he to know the difference is really naughty of you Denise ;-)
     
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  5. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Funny, I described the unconscious state I go into in PEM as nearer hibernation than sleep when my Endo was getting cocky some time ago.
     
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  6. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    One obvious example would be diversion of Tryptophan from Serotonin production to the kynurenine pathway thus promoting rest and isolation.
     
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  7. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I vaguely remember that lactic acid produced during exercise plays a part in strengthening muscle. Given that Myhill unearthed two groups of M.E. patients with poor ATP production and one group utilised anaerobic energy production that produced excess lactic acid - that might also explain it. Guess we have two possibilities?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
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  8. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Check out Chris Armstrong's webinar, response below is based on same.

    Re chronic infection, or chronic immune activation - Chris Armstrong (and Maureen Hanson) are suggesting low grade sepsis i.e. bacterial translocation from gut to blood (leaky gut). The cause of the leaky gut is that the gut is not sufficiently acidic i.e. the acidity of the gut and the blood are too close which allows bacteria to move from the gut into the bloodstream. The cause of the lower acidity in the gut is the effect of the change in metabolism caused by the sepsis (leaky gut) i.e. less acid is produced by the altered metabolism (shift from burning glucose to protein). I think Chris describes this as a negative feedback loop. Also, I think Chris points out that this is consistent with Hornig/Lipkin paper showing low grate infection response (cytokine paper).

    Re low Uric Acid - Uric Acid is an antioxidant i.e. free radical scavenger which is converted to Alanine. Therefore, lower levels of Uric Acid and higher levels of Alanine (in urine or plasma) are indicative of oxidative stress. Chris has proposed that the increase in Alanine in urine may be used as a diagnostic test but they need to find something to correct for the dilution in urine (creatinine can't be used).

    Separately, re references to "Tryptophan from Serotonin" - I'm interested in understanding how this would affect the day/night cycle i.e. being awake at night and asleep during the day and any suggestions re reversing same.
     
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  9. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    We did start producing a rating scale in a thread, and evaluating the existing scales some time ago. I took the view we needed something that rated separate functions very explicitly and calculated an end result.

    With ME we should always answer based upon what we NEED and what's typical without crashing.
     
  10. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I had a related issue in mind. If you take ample Vitamin C, you body makes less Uric Acid because oxidative stress is lower and it's unnecessary.

    The effect I might expect with severe depression depletion would be poor Melatonin levels and poor quality or too little sleep.

    When I developed that issue I found forcing myself to stay wake by day and combining Melatonin tablets with sleep formula herbal teas can help. A lot depends upon what is causing the sleep disturbances.
     
  11. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I find that side effects build up over time. When I came off fluoxetine it took six weeks for its effect to dissipate. I'm inclined to think we are slow to metabolise and eliminate drugs hence the side effects at higher doses.
     
  12. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    from an evolutionary perspective sick cave men can collect less food, a lower metabolic rate would spare energy.
     
  13. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    put simply the p value is the probability that a conclusion may be wrong. Ideally we want numbers more like p<0.005
     
  14. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Thank you for your reply Leopardtail. I need to check out the Melatonin tablets etc.

    Oops, uric acid is oxidised to allantoin not Alanine as I stated in my previous post.

    I think the interest in allantoin as a possible diagnostic test is interesting. It may simply be cheaper and easier to measure allantoin in urine using NMR and if the results indicate oxidative stress (e.g. from ME/CFS) then a follow test using Mass Spectrometry could be used to confirm same. The current word on the web is that a mass spectrometry test from folks linked to OMF will be roughly $1500 US dollars - pretty steep.

    The effect of supplementation with vitamin C (or other antioxidants) on allantoin levels is interesting; hopefully something Chris Armstrong or others will look into.

    It would be good to see a diagnostic test delivered; is it really that expensive to run a large study measuring allantoin in urine using NMR? Chris mentioned that the sample analysis costs for the studies conducted in his laboratory were less than $100,000 (not sure if this was USA or Australian dollars).
     
  15. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    The vast majority were Northern California and appear to be patients of one clinic! That could mean similar dietary interventions etc. I have driven two hundred miles in the USA and found the same houses, same crops grown, same accent, same food in restaurants. In. Britain you would see vast differences. The distances are not comparable.
     
  16. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Fancy taking the blood sample from a hibernating bear KME?
     
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  17. Janet Dafoe (Rose49)

    Janet Dafoe (Rose49) Board Member

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    The next study is drawing patients from all over N. America. Great to have first study AND Very important to validate with different populations.
     
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  18. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Adrenal, how does that process work? My understanding was that Mitochondria have an expected six week life span and increase by division?
     
  19. ash0787

    ash0787 Senior Member

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    Hopefully the control group on the replication study will contain people with other debilitating illness,
    one of the main concerns I see is that since metabolomics is relatively new the researchers might be looking at something thats actually common under certain circumstances and not unique to CFS.
     
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  20. Janet Dafoe (Rose49)

    Janet Dafoe (Rose49) Board Member

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    A lot needs to be done and it takes funding. I believe this next study has ME/CFS patients from all over N America with age and gender and region matched healthy controls. Of course we also need to differentiate between different diseases as soon as we can.
     
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