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'Natural' antiretrovirals?

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by dannybex, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    They don't suggest anything, unfortunately. I have found that I have to take very small doses of the Lauricidin, and if I begin to release heavy metals I stop. To help detox I drink a lot of chlorophyll water and take fairly large doses of Vit C and N-A-C. That's what works for me.
     
  2. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    I have had the same problem. When I take lauricidin I become even more ill. Is it a die off? A healing crisis? Sigh.
     
  3. Nina

    Nina Senior Member

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    Dasimay, I'm from Germany, so I kind of have the same problem.

    Btw: I have been taking artesunate for many weeks, it didn't help. I also read that it is neuro-toxic so problably shouldn't be taken over a longer period of time. Still it's worth a try, especially if you have chlamydia pneumoniae I hear.

    There's a clinic in Berlin that has published the now famous XMRV cancer study. If everything goes as planned they will refine their testing methods and hopefully offer a test for the public. I think this will only be a matter of weeks now. I assume there will be an opportunity to get tested in the UK around the same time, but if not you could still send your blood here I guess!
     
  4. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Natural antivirals/XMRV

    Hi Nina,

    I do. However, I figure if I could actually treat it, I will still show up with a past infection. Trying to self treat with antiretrovirals is tricky and an individual decision. I have been ill 18 years and am just sick of not feeling better. I will be 64 soon and I see spending the rest of my life just as I am (or worse) as today.

    As others have discussed, it can take years to get from research to treatment, and if they come up with allopathic antiretrovirals, AIDS and/or cancer meds, I am probably not going to be able to afford those anyway. And, of course, I am concerned that the CDC and other entities who don't want to lose their cash cows will muddy the waters whatever way they can.
     
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Weldman--

    When I began Lauricidin, I had very strong die-off the first two weeks, with nausea :p headaches :mad: and rather severe body aches :(. I could only take the children's minimal dose of 3 pellets. :eek::eek::eek: Considering the normal adult dose is a full scoop (about 100 pellets), I was REALLY taking it slowly. But hey, that's all I could handle so
    I didn't push it.

    At this point, I can take more, but am careful to watch my reactions and back off quick if necessary. I know it is working for me, but I also know that it can and will knock my socks off, so I play it very safe.
     
  6. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Dream,

    Thanks for the info! Can you tell me what form/brand you take it in. And could you elaborate on how it is working for you?

    Thanks
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    St John's Wort

    I did a bunch of research on this when I wanted to take it for another purpose, but what I found is relevant here. When St John's Wort was tested for potency there were huge variations in strength, despite what bottles in the health food store said. Some of the discrepancies come from which part of the herb were used to make the supplement.

    Since potency is very important when taking St John's Wort (it also increases dopamine, norepinephrine and many think also serotonin), I decided to get it from a compounding pharmacy instead of taking it from a health food store--then you (hopefully!) know what you are getting. They ordered Hypericum .3% from Pure Encapsulations. This gives 600 mg of hypericum (the active ingredient in St John's Wort) per capsule.

    I think this is worth the slightly higher cost if you are considering this supplement.

    Sushi
     
  8. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Weldman--

    There is only one kind of Lauricidin http://www.lauricidin.com/
    The other is monolaurin, which in my exprience is even stronger and harder to dose down, as it's in capsules, not pellets.

    Since I started the L., I've had less in the way of chronic infections. I have a sinus cold now for about 3 weeks, but it's not as bad as usual. I am taking only baby doses of the L. for it, but it's more effective than any other thing I've used. So that, for me, is significant. We'll see how I do this winter, that will be the true test.
     
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    L-Theanine & NF Kappa B

    Here is another interesting study:

    "l-Theanine, an amino acid in green tea, attenuates beta-amyloid-induced cognitive dysfunction and neurotoxicity: Reduction in oxidative damage and inactivation of ERK/p38 kinase and NF-kappaB pathways."

    http://me-cfsmethylation.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=156&p=770#p770

    Since NF-kappa B is said to activate XMRV, this might also be a good one to consider.

    Sushi
     
  10. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Sushi,

    Thanks for the great information. I am well aware that potency and contents are huge issues. The herbalist I sometimes consult has done a lot of research too on which herbs actually contain what they say. It's a shame that we have to do this research on our own!

    I was not aware that you could get the hypericum from a compounding pharmacy - there is one not too far from me. I am interested why the pharmacy chose Pure Encapsulations? Are they regulated by FDA?

    Thanks me giving me more options,

    Maxine
     
  11. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    natural anti-retrovirals

    I took one capsule of monolaurin and it really packed a punch. I had a noticeable die-off reaction.

    I've been taking caprylic acid for years, and it's very gentle, so I assumed that monolaurin, another component of coconut oil, would also be gentle. And I knew that AIDS patients sometimes eat lots of coconut. So when I ran out of Capryl (Solaray's brand) I took a monolaurin capsule. Whoops.

    I think it would be a very useful infection fighting tool, if I could get in a situation where I can afford to stay in bed and be incapacitated for a while.

    My thought was "If monolaurin does this to me, what would a prescription anti-retroviral drug do?"

    Of course, since it's a broad-spectrum anti-microbial, who knows what it was killing.
     
  12. shrewsbury

    shrewsbury member

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    st johns wort

    thanks for this info sushi.

    I didn't know about st johns as an anti-viral. Only as an antidepressant.

    Having a hard time finding my research info today, but I remember that St John's, hypericum perforatum, has 2 active ingredients - hypericin and hyperforin - and some supplements have only one, some both.

    It used to be thought that hypericin was the anti-depressant, but now there's some thought it might be hyperforin.

    I did a quick net search today and found in pubmed that hyperforin is also an anti-bacterial and that hypericin is the antiviral. Some studies show hypericin has some success with HIV - however light is also needed. See
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=17

    I will have to look further into this.

    islandfinn
     
  13. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I don't think anyone mentioned GSE (grapefruit seed extract). That can be very effective for bacterial and viral infections.

    AND... also some people say they get great effects from colloidal silver.
     
  14. cfs since 1998

    cfs since 1998 *****

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    St. John's Wort:
    I did a search of pubmed on "HIV st. john's wort" and found several articles said that there could be negative drug interactions, and that this herb reduces the effectiveness of antivirals used in HIV.

    Another supplement that has caught my interest is bitter melon, or momordica charantia. There's a protein in the fruit and seeds called MAP30 (that has actually ben patented) that inhibits HIV, herpes simplex virus, and possibly other viruses. Since bitter melon is a food that is eaten in some countries I would think the side effects would be minimal. It is also more easily obtained than phyllanthus. While I couldn't find tests for antiviral effects in vivo it has been found to be effective on breast cancer cells in vivo. Here is one of the articles I found discussing its antiviral effects:

    "MAP30 (Momordica Anti-HIV Protein), alpha- and beta-momorcharins inhibit HIV replication in acutely and chronically infected cells and thus are considered potential therapeutic agent in HIV infection and AIDS. Further, MAP30 improved the efficacy of anti-HIV therapy when used in combination with other anti-viral drugs. MAP30 holds therapeutic promise over other RIPs because not only it is active against infection and replication of both HSV and HIV but is non toxic to normal cells. Here we review the nature, action, structure function relationship and applications of RIPs from Momordica charantia and evaluate their potential for anti-cancer and anti-viral therapy."
     
  15. shrewsbury

    shrewsbury member

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    warning: loooooong post

    What a great thread! Thanks for starting this Danny and to all for the good info here. Im getting interested in licorice and low-dose naltrexone now.

    Pre-xmrv (its sort of like A.D., B.C. for us, isnt it?) my guestimate had been that ME/CFS was virus caused or a major factor. Id been trying to target infection, inflammation and pain and to get lots of anti-oxidants as my glands are always swollen, I run fevers, have big swings in temperature, get sweats, ache,. I favour a natural approach, food and herbs before supplements, and both before pharmaceuticals from my philosophical bent, past experience and drug sensitivity.

    Cant find the research Ive gathered right now, but the main things Im using for this aspect of ME/CFS are curcumin, cinnamon, cayenne, grape seed extract, colloidal silver and green tea (and lots of onion and garlic and lemon), along with omega 3, vit D, A, E and C and lavender essential oil, and a baby aspirin. A recent addition a few days ago instigated by reading some of the posts here and further research is olive leaf extract and using tea tree essential oil more regularly. Also am going to return to daily cranberry (100% no additive) juice.

    Curcumin: anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, chemopreventive and chemotherapeutic, chelator and decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. (anti-viral = studies contradictory on this so far)
    (I add turmeric to most food. It needs to be combined with pepper to be effective)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18324353
    --------------
    Since I couldnt find the info Ive been collecting, I looked on-line. I know nothing about this source, but like that they show the pubmed studies the info is based on. Its in reaction to h1n1, but looks at antivirals, immune boosters and at what decreases cytokines TNF-a and IL-6.
    http://the-health-gazette.com/496/natural-antivirals/

    Research suggests certain natural foods may be as effective against virus H5N1 as commercial antivirals.

    (PRWEB) May 10, 2006 A Biology teacher from Australia, named Stephen Jones, has done extensive research into the H5N1 virus and compiled a list of natural foods that are effective against it and listed others that are detrimental.

    The list may come as a surprise to many people since foods such as spirulina and echinacea are listed as detrimental. This strange occurrence is largely due to the fact that the virus is immune to 2 cytokines that the body produces (TNF-a and IL-6). Cytokines are compounds produced by the bodys immune system that attack and remove foreign bodies. The problem is that when a foreign body is immune to certain cytokines, the body sees that its immune response is not working and tries even harder, which can lead to what is called a cytokine storm, where the body becomes flooded with these compounds and they eventually destroy the body itself. Foods such as Echinacea actually stimulate the production of these specific cytokines; hence consuming it is not a good idea if one suspects they may have the virus.

    During the 1918 Spanish Flu many healthy young people died from cytokine storms due to their immune systems overreacting. Consuming foods which suppress the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6 and enhance the production of the ones that actually are effective against the virus will aid the patient greatly.

    Other foods that create mucous in the respiratory tract, such as bananas, are also listed as detrimental due to the fact that the predominant breeding ground of the virus is the respiratory tract and another way in which a patient may suffer is due to the bodys over production of mucous in this area.

    Folk Medicines and Herbs to use and avoid with Bird FluBelow is a list of foods that are said to contain substances that are natural antivirals, immune boosters or they decrease cytokines TNF-a and IL-6.

    Alternative medications that are most likely to help us during a severe pandemic:

    Garlic (allicin) Very effective antiviral. Best if fresh (raw) and crushed. Must be consumed within 1 hour of crushing. Dosage is initially 2 to 3 cloves per day but later reduce until no body odour occurs. No toxic effects noted. (Pubmed PMID 9049657)

    Vitamin C Boosts the immune system and is an antiviral by blocking the enzyme neuraminadase. Viruses need neuraminadase to reproduce. There are anecdotal stories of people taking large amounts of Vitamin C (children) surviving the Spanish Flu. Research shows that it may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. A study on 470 people involved giving the test group 1000 mg hourly for 6 hours and then 1000 mg 3 times daily after reporting flu symptoms. Symptoms decreased by 85%. (Pubmed PMID 10543583, 634178, 16169205, 12876306)

    Green Tea (possible Tamiflu/Relenza alternative) Very effective antiviral. Also decreases the production of the cytokine (catechins) TNF-a. Inhibits neuraminidase. May have antiviral activity that is equal to other antivirals such as Tamiflu. (Pubmed PMID 16137775)

    St Johns Wort (Hypericum) Very effective antiviral. Also decreases the production of the cytokine IL-6. Hypericum is an extract from St John’s Wort. There have been some very successful field trials in commercial flocks infected with H5N1 in Vietnam. (Pubmed PMID 7857513, 11518071, 11362353, 7857513, 11518071)

    Vitamin E Immune booster. Also decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. (Pubmed PMID 155882360, 10929076) Experiments involved using mice. Very suitable for immune compromised people, especially the elderly. Effects enhanced when taken with Vitamin C.

    Apple Juice Antiviral. Fresh apple juice including the pulp and skin has greater antiviral activity than heated commercial apple juice. More research is needed. Effectiveness on H5N1 is unknown. (Pubmed PMID 32832, 12452634)

    Resveratrol Antiviral. In addition to inhibiting neuraminidase, Resveratrol also sends a message to cells to stop manufacturing viruses. This is a proven antiviral found naturally in red wine, peanuts, mulberries, Japanese Knotwood root (richest source), raisins and red grapes. Resveratrol supplements are relatively inexpensive, are more stable than wine and is available in liquid form for absorption in the mouth. No toxic effects noted. (Pubmed PMID 1583880, 12817628, 15985724)

    Scuttellaria (Skullcap) Antiviral. A herb used as a tea. It has no side effects and is also a mild tranquilliser. Research suggests neuraminidase, which is a substance needed by the H5N1 virus to reproduce, may be inhibited.

    Cranberry Juice Early research shows that it may be an antiviral, making viruses less able to invade or multiply. Effectiveness on H5N1 is unknown. (Pubmed PMID15781126)

    Cats Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. Also boosts immune system. The number of white blood cells was significantly increased during treatment. No toxicity was noted. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed) Active constituents can be found in the leaves, bark, vine, and roots. Water extraction from bark used. Children and pregnant women are to avoid. Has a potentially damaging effect on the DNA of proliferating cells. (cancers, foetuses, growing children)

    Curcumin (Tumeric Spice) Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. This is the yellow compound in turmeric spice. Research shows that this may be very good for preventing a cytokine storm although this is not proven. Must be taken with food or gastritis or peptic ulcers may occur. Pregnant women and feeding mothers should avoid this. The medicinal properties of curcurnin cannot be utilised when used alone due to rapid metabolism in the liver and intestinal wall. When combined with Piperine found in black pepper the absorption is increased with no adverse effects. Obtainable from health stores in tablets, liquid, capsules already combined with piperine. Dosage is 500mg to 4000mg daily.

    Astragalus root (Astragali Radix) Boosts immune system. (Pubmed PMID15588652)

    Tea tree Steam Inhalation Reduces the cytokine TNF-a. Add 2 drops of tea tree oil in a bowl of steaming water. Cover head with a towel and inhale for 5 to 10 minutes. Relieves congestion and fights infection. Its effectiveness is unknown. (Pubmed PMID 11131302)


    The following substances may be best to avoid during a H5N1 pandemic

    Elderberry juice (Sambucal) AVOID Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. This substance is very effective against the common flu but may not be desirable for the H5N1 virus. Increases in these cytokines may trigger a lethal cytokine storm. (Isr Med Journal2002 Nov;4:944-6)

    Micro Algae (Chlorella and Spirulina) AVOID Increases production of cytokine TNF-a. (Pubmed PMID 11731916)

    Honey AVOID Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID12824009)

    Chocolate AVOID Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID 12885154, PMID 10917928)

    Echinacea AVOID Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. Although it is often used for normal flu, research shows that it may increase the chance of cytokine storms for H5N1. (Pubmed PMID 15556647, 9568541)

    Kimchi AVOID Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID15630182)

    Dairy products & Bananas AVOID These foods increase mucous production.

    References:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/ (search using Pubmed ID number listed after each food)

    hmmm food for thought here for me:)p:):eek:). When I'm warding off viruses (and weirdly I almsot never get them - maybe have an immunity from 25 years of teaching or maybe as someone posted here, maybe my body doesn't show extra symptoms any more) I turn to echinacea, greens, lemon with honey and cayenne, and vit C.

    ohh and I forgot lycopene from food sources. Its an acknowledged antioxidant
    Lycopene may be the most powerful carotenoid quencher of singlet oxygen[17], being 100 times more efficient in test tube studies of singlet-oxygen quenching action than vitamin E, which in turn has 125 times the quenching action of glutathione (water soluble) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopene

    and has contradicting studies now as to whether its an antiviral as well.
     
  16. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Oi Vay

    Oi vay.......again

    I need another body just to hijack its brain to keep up with everyone.

    You all are awesome.... Thank you

    June
     
  17. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Monolaurin vs Lauricidin

    MONOLAURIN vs LAURICIDIN

    I've taken both of these, and here's my experience with them. I initially took Monolaurin, because I didn't yet know about Lauricidin.

    Back in July, for three days straight I took a fairly big dose (of 1800 mg) of the Monolaurin, as I was told to do by a health care practitioner. I had a whopper of a die-off reaction by the third day, that put me in bed with really bad flu like symptoms, nausea, headache, dizziness, and achiness all over my body. But two days later, after stopping all further doses for those two days and letting my body process *the crud,* I felt amazingly well, so well that I went kayaking for 2 hours and felt fine afterwards. (I hadn't done that all summer, so it was a very big change in energy.) However... because it was so potent in killing the microbes, and I just did not want to keep going through the die-off at such an extreme level, I was not able to keep taking the Monolaurin. That was when I found out about the Lauricidin.

    Whereas the Monolaurin comes as a powder in 300 mg capsules, the Lauricidin, on the other hand, comes in little 30 mg pellets (small as half of a rice grain). The standard adult dose of Lauricidin is 3000 mg, which is about 100 pellets. BUT.. if you want to go real slow to minimize die-off, you can take as little as ONE PELLET per day. That is what I did. I very very slowly (over a 6 week period) built up my dose from 1 pellet to 30 pellets, then (due to heavy metal detox spurred by the Lauricidin) I went back down to 3 pellets, and now due to a cold I am back up to 30 pellets.

    Lauricidin is very effective, in my experience, at killing pathogens. Just the dosing is tricky and needs to be re-adjusted to work at its most efficient/least uncomfortable level.

    I hope that's helpful.
     
  18. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Thanks Dreambirdie, I appreciate hearing of your experiences with Lauricidin. Can you please tell me what exactly you mean by chlorophyll water, not heard of that?

    BW,

    Daisymay
     
  19. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Nina sorry that you didn't find artesunate helping, what sort of dosage were you on?

    BW,

    Daisymay
     
  20. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Daisymay--

    Your welcome.

    Chlorophyll water is water with a tablespoon or more of pure chlorophyll in it. I drink it by the quart when I feel toxic. I usually get it from World Organics. But I'm sure there are other companies that bottle it as well. http://world-organic.herbsmd.com/
     

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