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'Natural' antiretrovirals?

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by dannybex, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The last time I tried high dose quercetin, I found it overstimulated me during the day, and gave me some insomnia, so I stopped taking it.

    Apparently quercetin is a monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor. MAO inhibitors are known for causing overstimulation/insomnia. However, maybe there's some way to prevent or counter quercetin's overstimulating/insomnia effects, by taking something which counters quercetin's MAO inhibition. In other words, take something that increases MAO production at the same time that you take quercetin. That should cancel out the overstimulation/insomnia effect of quercetin. Note that quercetin inhibits MAO-A much more than MAO-B; so we want to find an MAO-A booster to counter quercetin's stimulating effect.

    MAO production boosters potentially include: copper boosts MAO in general, progesterone boosts MAO-B (but progesterone unfortunately activates XMRV, so this defeats the object!), retinoic acid boosts MAO-B, dexamethasone (a corticosteroid) boosts MAO-A, Rauwolfia serpentina (a herb, but apparently not used much due to side effects) boosts MAO-A.

    I cannot find any other MAO-A boosters at the moment.
  2. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    i bought some really pricey curcumin product yesterday...ill see if it helps. i didnt realize it was basically turmeric. i am indian so we cook with that all the time. i would like to take NADH for the brain but i think there might be some danger in promoting viral growth..does anyone know?

    thanks
    sue
  3. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    hey Sue
    If you got the Enhansa; it is a special form of Curcumin, altered to enhance absorption. It is recommended not to take "normal" curcumin with it as this will affect the absorption. Try getting a prescription for it as your insurance may reimburse it. It is super strong so please build up slowly. There are many accounts online on people who treat their autistic kids with it ( these suffer from brain inflammation too). Expect side effects when you start as your immune system adjusts ( muscle pain, cramps, fatigue) I have just started it and am having side effects but my brain is feeling better.
    Hope it helps you
    Xoxoxo
  4. sphynx on roundabouts

    sphynx on roundabouts

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    Hi Rrrr (bad eyesight and having great trouble in counting how many 'r's you have!)

    I've been taking the Doctor's Best brand and they have a combined quercetin plus bromelain capsule. My dose seems to be half of what has been suggested here, I have 1000mg quercetin and 500mg bromelain per day. Considering the bromelain is recognized as enhancing the properties of quercetin maybe it evens out with the sole use of quercetin at 2000mg per day. I had tried very expensive quercetin on its own previously but didn't find it as effective for the devil in the head symptoms as the q and b together.

    The reduction in symptoms seems to be ahppening in 2 ways for me. Specific to the burning, stinging, crawling and pressure feelings it happens quickly. I take the supplement morning and eve and if I forget to take it in the evening I will always wake up in the night with these head symptoms. It's no miracle but it's a beautiful help for me. It's not enough, I still need more help with these symptoms but considering I can feel it's benefit, I will not be without it in my supplements plan at the moment. In this instance it would appear to be the anti-inflammatory properties that are evident.

    Then, in the long term of feeling a general release from the severity of allover symptoms, this was very gradual and very slow and probably couldn't be achieved without a whole bunch of other stuff too (however, I'd be taking all of the other stuff for a few years without the q&b and didn't have any improvements). From day to day I couldn't tell any difference but after 3 months I felt a little better and a little stronger. I've no idea if this improvement will be sustained over a longer time but for me for now it's a welcome boost. I don't want to up the dose because I have no side effects at this dose and don't want to invite and herxheimer into the picture. Low and slows suits me best at the moment. I'm pretty certain that it will not be suitable for everyone and it's so frustrating to hear of things that help others but when we try them ourselves, they are unhelpful. However, I hope my info will be of some use to you in weighing up more information about this supplement.
  5. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    I have taken Quercetin and Bromelain together with Curcumin for over 3 years now.
    Although I have had improvement with this combo I couldnt say specifically that it was due to Quercetin. I also only take a low dose of Quercetin 250 mg, and maybe should take a larger dose. Its something to consider now that it may help with treatment of retroviruses.

    Both Quercetin and Curcumin require a certain amount of fat to be readily absorbed, even when taken with Bioperine. Dr Russell Blaylock who recommends both to his patients for most inflammatory diseases, says the capsules should be broken open and put the contents into a tablespoon and mixed with virgin olive oil to get maximum absorption.

    http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...-HPA-Axis-Dysfunction&highlight=curcumin axis
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    One other thing: high-dose quercetin's MAO-A inhibiting action may make tyramines a slight concern.

    MAO-A is required to break down dietary tyramines, so an MAO-A inhibitor may allow tyramines to build up to high levels in your body. I don't think this is going to be a major problem, but it is something to bear in mind, especailly if you take other MAO-A inhibitors like the anti-depressant drug moclobemide, or the herbs resveratrol or curcumin. Here is a list MAO inhibitors.

    High tyramine can cause headaches and hypertension. So it may be wise to be aware of the foods that contain high amounts of tyramine, and to consider avoiding these foods while taking high dose quercetin. High tyramine food include: anchovies, avocados, bananas, bean curd, beer (alcohol-free/reduced), caffeine (large amounts), caviar, champagne, cheese (particularly aged, processed, or strong varieties such as camembert, cheddar, and stilton), chocolate, dry sausage/salami/bologna, fava beans, figs, herring (pickled), liver (particularly chicken), meat tenderizers, papaya, protein extracts/powder, raisins, shrimp paste, sour cream, soy sauce, wine (particularly chianti), yeast extracts and yogurt. See also: Low-Tyramine Diet.
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Tyramines and MAO-A Inhibitors

    One other thing: high-dose quercetin's MAO-A inhibiting action may make tyramines a slight concern.

    MAO-A is required to break down dietary tyramines, so an MAO-A inhibitor may allow tyramines to build up to high levels in your body. I don't think this is going to be a major problem, but it is something to bear in mind, especailly if you take other MAO-A inhibitors like the anti-depressant drug moclobemide, or the herbs resveratrol or curcumin. Here is a list MAO inhibitors.

    High tyramine can cause headaches and hypertension. So it may be wise to be aware of the foods that contain high amounts of tyramine, and to consider avoiding these foods while taking high dose quercetin. High tyramine foods include: anchovies, avocados, bananas, bean curd, beer (alcohol-free/reduced), caffeine (large amounts), caviar, champagne, cheese (particularly aged, processed, or strong varieties such as camembert, cheddar, and stilton), chocolate, dry sausage/salami/bologna, fava beans, figs, herring (pickled), liver (particularly chicken), meat tenderizers, papaya, protein extracts/powder, raisins, shrimp paste, sour cream, soy sauce, wine (particularly chianti), yeast extracts and yogurt. See also: Low-Tyramine Diet.
  8. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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    thanks!!!!!

  9. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    That sounds great; i have lot of creepy crawlies. Am afraid of the salicylates tho
  10. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting all that over here, Hip!

    Quercitin sounds really great. Except maybe too much is a bad thing. I always end up taking small to moderate doses of everything, it seems. Maybe quercitin is no exception.

    The list of high tyramine foods sounds a lot like the list of foods that migraine sufferers avoid.

    Hey WestOzGirl, are plant saponins the same thing as phytosterols? I suspect they might be. If they are, then I have tried taking phytosterols and they did a great job of removing toxins from the digestive tract. Like the drug Questran, they were too strong for me, so I ended up taking soluble fiber for toxin removal.

    I didn't know that they could be antiretroviral!
  11. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    Hey, sphynx, I also take bromelain and I also think it's the anti-inflammatory properties of it that help me. I increased my dose from 1500 mg/day to 2500 mg/day and I feel less poisoned in general. So maybe now I'll try adding some quercetin.

    LOL about counting Rrrr's number of R's. I've had that blurry vision before.
  12. glenp

    glenp "and this too shall pass"

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  13. sphynx on roundabouts

    sphynx on roundabouts

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    Hip, thanks for the information on tyramines. I would never know about these kind of things if it weren't for the kindness of strangers who go to the bother to share the bits of information.

    That sounds like a great tip you offer Liverock about the high quality oil and the open capsule - love it, gonna try it, thank you.

    Leaves, that's a delicate balance when you have to tread softly around the salicylates.

    Katieann your descriptions are vivid and familiar ot me (I'm all confused with the fish and the bowling ball imagery but I get the kind of pressure you're dealing with). I didn't find the q&b to be of any assistance in addressing the lightening strikes sensation in the head but I found gaba to give a little reduction in this symptom. Although, when I tried it first, I couldn't tolerate it at all - gave headache and kind of dead head symptom.

    Forebearance, you caught me out with the blurry wision. Just like a drunk shouldn't be allowed to get behind the wheel of a car, a brain frog shouldn't be allowed to type into public forums!
    It's really good to hear that you feel less of the poison feeling with the help of bromelain. I can't say what exactly it is that it offers me on its own but when I see the hike in my cd57 result I am so happy. It's not like I was saying 'oh I've a bad pain in the cd57 today' but whatever was taking down this count is obviously taking a slap from the bromelain in me. Also when I feel it enhance the quercetin I think it's an appropriate supplement for me. This might not be the case for others.

    Some cfs and lyme people might be interested in what appears in a google search of "cd57, bromelain".

    I have to point out that the level I am at right now would be horrific to many people with moderate cfs, even some with severe cfs. I am totally bedbound dependant but to make any form of escape from the dark place from which I am emerging is a success for me. I'd love to think that I can sustain it but who knows what tomorrow brings? (damnit, now the chorus has started in my head! Ok- medicine lifts us up where we belong... C'mon - sing it with me...)
  14. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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  15. sphynx on roundabouts

    sphynx on roundabouts

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    Noni juice - Morinda Citrifolia

    Recently I stumbled across the Noni tree (not literally - I'm bedbound, that'd be weird) in terms of antiviral and antibacterial agents. The noni or Morinda Citrifolia has been used forever for a wide range of illness but its stated benefits makes me wonder if it could be helpful for us. Amongst the healing properties are the following: pain reliever, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-tumor, anti-parasitic, digestive aid and immune booster. It is supposed to be high in amino acids and vitamins as well as potassium which makes it unsuitable for those with kidney disease.

    I'm thinking if it sounds too good to be true... but does anyone have any experience with this juice or know anything about it?
  16. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    I have tried Noni juice in the past, but I can't remember what it did for me. I guess I should try it again some time. Things that didn't work well for me while I was in my moldy apartment sometimes work better now.
  17. sphynx on roundabouts

    sphynx on roundabouts

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    Thanks Forbearance. It's good that you got out of the moldy environment!
    Do you remember how much of the noni juice you were taking? Were you brave enough to try it neat on an empty stomach or do you remember if you mixed it with fruit juice?
  18. FancyMyBlood

    FancyMyBlood Senior Member

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    Lactoferrin seems to have some effect against some MLVs.
  19. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    Sphynx, I think I took a teaspoon of it plain, probably on an empty stomach. I'm getting some memory of it back, and I think it gave me really bad diarrhea. Which might have meant it was working. But I think I set it aside as something that was too strong for me. (like a lot of things) I should really try it again!

    FancyMyBlood, what is lactoferrin? Do you have a reference for it having an effect on some MLVs?
  20. glenp

    glenp "and this too shall pass"

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    Acai100

    I am taking 1/4 cup of acai berry juice, daily. I am thinking maybe next time to try the noni and then maybe the goji juce. The cfs doctor here recommended the acai. I wonder if there is much difference in the way the juices help us?

    glen

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