1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Dr. Kerr, I presume?
Clark Ellis brings us a rare interview with British researcher Dr. Jonathan Kerr who is now living in Colombia.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

'Natural' antiretrovirals?

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by dannybex, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    i'm posting this just in case HIV and XMRV are similar! (summary: 1-2 cups of green tea per day inhibits cell binding of HIV by 40%) -- rrrr


    http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=39326


    April 12, 2007

    Green-tea study offers hope of AIDS drug

    Health News 2007-04-12 Green-tea study offers hope of AIDS drug Scientists in Texas and the United Kingdom have found that a chemical from green tea reduces HIV's ability to infect cell binding.


    Scientists in Texas and the United Kingdom have found that a chemical from green tea reduces HIV's ability to infect cells.

    The scientists from the University of Sheffield and Baylor College of Medicine in Houston found that as little as two cups of green tea could provide enough of the chemical epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) to inhibit HIV cell binding by 40%.

    However, they do not recommend that people start drinking gallons of green tea as an HIV preventative. Rather, they are conducting research to find out if EGCG or a chemical like it would make a good HIV drug.

    Epigallocatechin gallate is a catechin, one of a large family of chemicals called bioflavonoids that are found in tea, red wine, and many fruits and vegetables. Most are colored red or purple and/or taste bitter; many have antioxidant properties and have been investigated for some time as possible anticancer and cardiovascular drugs.

    Baylor's Dr. Christina Nance and her team found that EGCG exerts a more direct effect on HIV infection. The molecule likes to bind to CD4, the cell-surface molecule which HIV first binds to as well.

    This was discovered by Japanese scientists in 2003, but by using computers to image the exact shape of the proteins and working out the electronic processes involved, Nance's team worked out that ECGC sticks to exactly the same amino acid (component) of the CD4 molecule as does gp120—the "docking module" of HIV.

    "When it binds there, the gp120 envelope protein—and thus HIV—can't [bind]," Nance said. Her team's findings are published in a recent issue of The Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology.

    The history of HIV medicine is full of promising-looking compounds from plants that had some effect on the HIV virus in the test tube but, when tested in animals and humans, either produced no effect or only did so at toxic doses. The previous Japanese research had indicated that the same would be true of EGCG -- huge doses would be needed.

    But Nance said that "physiological levels" of EGCG -- that is, 0.2 micromoles per liter, or the amount in just a cup or two of green tea -- inhibited HIV binding by 40%.

    The team is now using computer-imaging tools to examine more closely the way that EGCG binds to CD4 in the hope of developing improved molecules that will bind to it more closely.

    It is also investigating the possibility of a small trial of ECGC in humans to see if it blocks HIV infection in real life.

    If EGCG or something like it does lead to an HIV treatment, it won't be a first. The story of the integrase inhibitors, which has now finally resulted in the launch of a new drug, raltegravir, started when researchers looked at substances derived from green coffee beans.

    And another drug now undergoing trials, bevirimat, was derived from chemicals found in birch-tree bark.

    Will a mug of English Breakfast have the same effect? No. Black tea leaves contain EGCG, but in much lower quantities. That's because black tea leaves are fermented, a process in which many of the catechins are oxidized to darker-colored molecules called theaflavin and thearubigen. (Gus Cairns, Gay.com/U.K.)
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Herbal and Vitamin Supplement Anti-Retrovirals: QUERCETIN, MYRICETIN & SCUTELLARIA BAICALENSIS

    A study found that four naturally occurring flavonoids, baicalein (from the Chinese herb Scutellaria baicalensis), quercetin (a dietary supplement), quercetagetin and myricetin (a dietary supplement), were found to be potent inhibitors of reverse transcriptases from Rauscher murine leukemia virus (RLV) and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).

    Any one of these flavonoids almost completely inhibited the activity of RLV reverse transcriptase at a concentration of 1 microgram/ml.

    HIV reverse transcriptase was inhibited by 100%, 100%, 90% and 70% in the presence of 2 micrograms/ml quercetin, myricetin, quercetagetin and baicalein, respectively.

    Reference: here.

    So this study indicates that taking the 3 supplements and herbs: quercetin, myricetin and Scutellaria baicalensis may make an effective treatment for murine leukemia viruses.

    Substances that inhibit NF-kappa-B will reduce retroviral replication. Sulphasalazine is a very good NF-kappa-B inhibitor prescription drug. Curcumin is a good herbal NF-kappa-B inhibitor. Other reasonable NF-kappa-B inhibitors include: grape seed extract, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera), milk thistle, black seed oil (Nigella sativa), alpha lipoic acid, pycnogenol.

    So adding curcumin to the above 3 supplements may be of further benefit in fighting XMRV and other MLV-related viruses.


    Also worth considering:

    Bitter Melon (Momordica charantia) is a HIV-1 integrase inhibitor.
    Stonebreaker (Phyllanthus niruri) is a HIV-1 reverse transcriptase inhibitor.
    Olive leaf extract is a HIV-1 fusion inhibitor and integrase inhibitor.

    Cichoric acid has also shown antiviral activity and inhibits HIV-1 integrase and replication. Cichoric acid is found in chicory (chicory is a cheap coffee substitute), and in Echinacea pupurea.
     
  3. Mala

    Mala

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    0
    Sweden
    Very good Hip, thankyou for this. Does anyone have experience from theese herbs?
     
  4. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes:
    15
    Hey Hip thanks !!
    Were these studies in vitro or on vivo?? That is quite important as in vitro does not imply it is effective when you take it as a supplement....
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Herbal and Vitamin Supplement Anti-Retrovirals for XMRV / MLV: QUERCETIN, MYRICETIN & SCUTELLARIA BAICALENSIS?

    The flavonoids in the above study were tested in a cell culture, so this was an in vitro study. As you say, in vitro efficacy does not necessary equate to in vivo efficacy.

    However, these flavonoids are pretty safe, and are actually generally beneficial to health, so anyone who has been tested XMRV positive, and who wants to try these flavonoids as an experiment antiretroviral regimen for a few months, certainly has nothing to lose.

    In terms dosage, in the study, when a concentration of 1 microgram per milliliter of a flavonoids was introduced to the cell cultures, this showed nearly 100% inhibition of the activity of RLV reverse transcriptase.

    So the question is, what size of supplement tablet of your chosen flavonoid(s) do you need to take, in order to achieve these concentrations in your body's fluid composition?

    As a rough guide, a 70 Kg person will have around 40 liters of water (fluids) in their entire body.

    Thus to achieve a concentration of 1 microgram per milliliter of your chosen flavonoid when diluted into 40 liters, you would need 40 mg of flavonoid, assuming 100% of this flavonoid supplement tablet was absorbed and dissolved into your body.

    However, the bioavailability (absorption in the gut) of quercetin, for example, is very low, typically only 2%, thus we would need 50 times more quercetin: a dose of 50 x 40 mg = 2000 mg. This works out as quite a high dose, but still acceptable. I have taken 1500 mg a day before, and the only side effect was an overstimulated feeling.

    The plasma half life of quercetin is around 17-24 hours, so this is reasonably long, and therefore you could take up to 1000 mg of quercetin twice a day, and the blood levels of this flavonoid should be maintained at the desired antiviral concentration.

    There does not seem to be much data regarding the bioavailability of myricetin and baicalein, but the dose calculation would be similar. (Myricetin is slightly soluble in warm water, suggesting that its bioavailability may be quite low.)
     
  6. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

    Messages:
    389
    Likes:
    111
    Great Plains, US
    Hey Hip, could you add those herbs and flavinoids to the natural antivirals thread? That way they'd be easy to find in the future.

    They sound like great ideas. I already take a bunch of quercitin in my bio-C pill, so I'm going to go check the dosage.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    I have been asked to repost the following two comments here in the 'Natural' Antiretrovirals thread. These posts were originally posted in the Antivirals for MLV-related Viruses thread.


    Herbal and Vitamin Supplement Anti-Retrovirals for XMRV / MLV : QUERCETIN, MYRICETIN & SCUTELLARIA BAICALENSIS

    A study found that four naturally occurring flavonoids, baicalein (from the Chinese herb Scutellaria baicalensis), quercetin (a dietary supplement), quercetagetin and myricetin (a dietary supplement), were found to be potent inhibitors of reverse transcriptases from Rauscher murine leukemia virus (RLV) and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).

    Any one of these flavonoids almost completely inhibited the activity of RLV reverse transcriptase at a concentration of 1 microgram/ml.

    HIV reverse transcriptase was inhibited by 100%, 100%, 90% and 70% in the presence of 2 micrograms/ml quercetin, myricetin, quercetagetin and baicalein, respectively.

    Reference: here.

    So this study indicates that taking the 3 supplements and herbs: quercetin, myricetin and Scutellaria baicalensis may make an effective treatment for murine leukemia viruses.

    Substances that inhibit NF-kappa-B will reduce retroviral replication. Sulphasalazine is a very good NF-kappa-B inhibitor prescription drug. Curcumin is a good herbal NF-kappa-B inhibitor. Other reasonable NF-kappa-B inhibitors include: grape seed extract, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera), milk thistle, black seed oil (Nigella sativa), alpha lipoic acid, pycnogenol.

    So adding curcumin to the above 3 supplements may be of further benefit in fighting XMRV and other MLV-related viruses.


    Also worth considering:

    Bitter Melon (Momordica charantia) is a HIV-1 integrase inhibitor.
    Stonebreaker (Phyllanthus niruri) is a HIV-1 reverse transcriptase inhibitor.
    Olive leaf extract is a HIV-1 fusion inhibitor and integrase inhibitor.

    Cichoric acid has also shown antiviral activity and inhibits HIV-1 integrase and replication. Cichoric acid is found in chicory (chicory is a cheap coffee substitute), and in Echinacea pupurea.
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Herbal and Vitamin Supplement Anti-Retrovirals for XMRV / MLV: QUERCETIN, MYRICETIN & SCUTELLARIA BAICALENSIS?

    The flavonoids in the above study were tested in a cell culture, so this was an in vitro study. As you say, in vitro efficacy does not necessary equate to in vivo efficacy.

    However, these flavonoids are pretty safe, and are actually generally beneficial to health, so anyone who has been tested XMRV positive, and who wants to try these flavonoids as an experiment antiretroviral regimen for a few months, certainly has nothing to lose.

    In terms dosage, in the study, when a concentration of 1 microgram per milliliter of a flavonoids was introduced to the cell cultures, this showed nearly 100% inhibition of the activity of RLV reverse transcriptase.

    So the question is, what size of supplement tablet of your chosen flavonoid(s) do you need to take, in order to achieve these concentrations in your body's fluid composition?

    As a rough guide, a 70 Kg person will have around 40 liters of water (fluids) in their entire body.

    Thus to achieve a concentration of 1 microgram per milliliter of your chosen flavonoid when diluted into 40 liters, you would need 40 mg of flavonoid, assuming 100% of this flavonoid supplement tablet was absorbed and dissolved into your body.

    However, the bioavailability (absorption in the gut) of quercetin, for example, is very low, typically only 2%, thus we would need 50 times more quercetin: a dose of 50 x 40 mg = 2000 mg. This works out as quite a high dose, but still acceptable. I have taken 1500 mg a day before, and the only side effect was an overstimulated feeling.

    The plasma half life of quercetin is around 17-24 hours, so this is reasonably long, and therefore you could take up to 1000 mg of quercetin twice a day, and the blood levels of this flavonoid should be maintained at the desired antiviral concentration.

    There does not seem to be much data regarding the bioavailability of myricetin and baicalein, but the dose calculation would be similar. (Myricetin is slightly soluble in warm water, suggesting that its bioavailability may be quite low.)
     
  9. WestOzGirl

    WestOzGirl

    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    3
    Western Australia
    Hip

    “HIV reverse transcriptase was inhibited by 100%, 100%, 90% and 70% in the presence of 2 micrograms/ml quercetin, myricetin, quercetagetin and baicalein, respectively.”

    Not being pedantic but just want some clarification on the above. Why is it recommended to take baicalein (scutellaria baicalenis) if it only has 70% efficacy compared to queretagetin which has 90%?

    Also has anyone looked into plant saponins as an antiretroviral? Plants possess these substances as a natural defence against invading pathogens. They also have the effect of binding/sequestering bile acids, a similar effect to the bile acid sequestrant Questran. I believe bile acid sequestrants have helped some people with ME/CFS such as Erik Johnson
     
  10. WestOzGirl

    WestOzGirl

    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    3
    Western Australia
    Hip

    “HIV reverse transcriptase was inhibited by 100%, 100%, 90% and 70% in the presence of 2 micrograms/ml quercetin, myricetin, quercetagetin and baicalein, respectively.”

    Not being pedantic but just want some clarification on the above. Why is it recommended to take baicalein (scutellaria baicalenis) if it only has 70% efficacy compared to queretagetin which has 90%?

    Also has anyone looked into plant saponins as an antiretroviral? Plants possess these substances as a natural defence against invading pathogens. They also have the effect of binding/sequestering bile acids, a similar effect to the bile acid sequestrant Questran. I believe bile acid sequestrants have helped some people with ME/CFS such as Erik Johnson
     
  11. sphynx on roundabouts

    sphynx on roundabouts

    Messages:
    68
    Likes:
    5
    This thread has some very interesting information! I have experience with quercetin and considering we are all at different levels needing different things, I'm not sure how much use my experience will be but I'll share the info anyway.

    I don't know yet if I'm x+ or x- but I have severe CFS as defined by Canadian criteria. I started to take this supplement for unbearable pressure, heat and stinging in one side of the head. It calmed it down somewhat and I could tell that it was helping because if I forgot to take it the dreaded devil returned to my head. I was totally unaware of its possible influence on retroviruses and only knew that it was an effective anti-inflammatory, anti-ager and anti-histamine. I'm very sensitive to many supplements and drugs so it was good to find that I had no problem with quercitin even on an empty stomach. I've been taking it for about 8 months now and I have slowly improved since I commenced. It's always very difficult to say what element has helped when it is taken along with numerous other things but the bottom line for me is that I feel a little better when I take it and a little worse when I don't. In my case, it's probably the anti-inflammatory aspect that brings a little relief but it's reassuring to learn that it could be a support in antiretroviral therapy.

    I have another point that isn't entirely unrelated: I buy the quercetin that is coupled with bromelain as it is said to enhance the benefits. During the previous period of about 2 years, my cd57 count had fallen from 9 to 5 (even though I had always tested negative for borrelia). Then, after taking the quercetin and bromelain for about 4 months, my cd57 count was above 30. I never suspected there was any correlation until I saw Stephen Buhner's book on lyme that states that bromelain raises cd57. I have read somewhere along the line that, even though cd57 has primarily been associated with lyme disease, it is also found to be depleted in cfs patients who have no evidence of borreliosis.

    I take many supplements and have many complications so there is no way to say that quercitin and bromelain are either antiviral or antimicrobial but with their help I have experienced a slow improvement. As with so many things for cfs, they help some and not others I guess.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Papain or bromelain is sometimes included in quercetin tablets as is thought to enhance quercetin's absorption. Note that quercetin is antiviral for several viruses, so its benefits will extend beyond its antiretroviral activity.
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Sure. It is just because quercetin, myricetin and Scutellaria baicalensis (which contains baicalein) are available as dietary supplements that you can buy. Quercetagetin is not generally available as a supplement, as far as I can see.

    Also, note that the study said that "Any one of these flavonoids almost completely inhibited the activity of Rauscher murine leukemia virus (RLV) reverse transcriptase at a concentration of 1 microgram/ml." So these 4 flavonoids are all equally good for treating this murine leukemia virus.

    Quercetin may be a good choice, based on cost and easy availability.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    Info on baicalein oral absorption: Comparison of metabolic pharmacokinetics of baicalin and baicalein in rats

    Note that it is baicalein, not baicalin, that was the study mentioned in my earlier post had anti-MLV virus activity in vitro. (Both baicalein and baicalin are found in Scutellaria species).

    However, both baicalein and baicalin possess anti-retroviral properties:


    The difference in HIV-1 reverse transcriptase inhibitory activity between baicalein and baicalin has been examined (Zhao et al,, 1998), The results show that the HIV-1 reverse transcriptase inhibitory activity of baicalein was four times higher than baicalin. Reference: here


    Info on baicalin oral absorption: oral bioavailability of baicalin: 2.2%. So this is a very similar bioavailability to quercetin's. The plasma half life of baicalin is around 10 hours. If you took baicalin on its own, you would probably need to take 1000 mg of baicalin three times a day (the plasma half life of baicalin is shorter than quercetin's, so best to take the dose 3 times a day) to get significant antiretroviral effects. Reference: here.

    However, at this high dosage, the side effects and toxicities of Scutellaria baicalensis root may be a concern. These include: hepatotoxicity, pneumonitis, stupor, confusion, seizures.

    You would probably need to find a bulk source of Scutellaria baicalensis root extract to make taking baicalin an economical option. Scutellaria baicalensis root extracts typically contain something like 90% baicalin. (Solgar's Scutellaria baicalensis, for example, contains only 75 mg Scutellaria baicalensis root extract per capsule; so this is not really an economical option, if you took 1000 mg three times a day).

    All in all, taking quercetin looks a lot safer and easier than taking Scutellaria baicalensis.
     
  15. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

    Messages:
    847
    Likes:
    178
    "The plasma half life of quercetin is around 17-24 hours, so this is reasonably long, and therefore you could take up to 1000 mg of quercetin twice a day, and the blood levels of this flavonoid should be maintained at the desired antiviral concentration. "

    Quercetin sounds very useful but just a note of caution. It acts as a vasodilator which some with CFS don't do well with. Makes us feel absolutely drained and puts us flat out!
     
  16. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    thanks for this post. can you tell us how much of both supplements you take? and how soon you started to FEEL results?
     
  17. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    i do very badly on vasodilators. but i don't do badly on 500 mg/day of quercitin.

    everyone, all the staff, at my doctor's office use it as an antihistamine during pollen season, or when a cat allergic person visits a house with a cat.
     
  18. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    i keep files on all the supplements i take. and i just opened my quercetin file and found this, written yrs ago by someone on some forum somewhere:

    "[my friend who broke out in hives one day] decided to get some Quercetin since it is supposed to help with allegies. Well it worked. In a day her hives were gone and not only that but her illness is SOOO much better. She went from mostly bedridden to doing everything. She has been on it about a week or so and isn't sure if the results will be lasting but she is hoping so. She says she is feeling a lot more like her old self."
     
  19. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    i keep files on all the supplements i take. and i just opened my quercetin file and found this, written yrs ago by someone on some forum somewhere:

    "[my friend who broke out in hives one day] decided to get some Quercetin since it is supposed to help with allegies. Well it worked. In a day her hives were gone and not only that but her illness is SOOO much better. She went from mostly bedridden to doing everything. She has been on it about a week or so and isn't sure if the results will be lasting but she is hoping so. She says she is feeling a lot more like her old self."
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,109
    Likes:
    2,963
    The last time I tried high dose quercetin, I found it overstimulated me during the day, and gave me some insomnia, so I stopped taking it.

    Apparently quercetin is a monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor. MAO inhibitors are known for causing overstimulation/insomnia. However, maybe there's some way to prevent or counter quercetin's overstimulating/insomnia effects, by taking something which counters quercetin's MAO inhibition. In other words, take something that increases MAO production at the same time that you take quercetin. That should cancel out the overstimulation/insomnia effect of quercetin. Note that quercetin inhibits MAO-A much more than MAO-B; so we want to find an MAO-A booster to counter quercetin's stimulating effect.

    MAO production boosters potentially include: copper boosts MAO in general, progesterone boosts MAO-B (but progesterone unfortunately activates XMRV, so this defeats the object!), retinoic acid boosts MAO-B, dexamethasone (a corticosteroid) boosts MAO-A, Rauwolfia serpentina (a herb, but apparently not used much due to side effects) boosts MAO-A.

    I cannot find any other MAO-A boosters at the moment.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page