The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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NAC, Glutathione, Methylation, and Elevated Liver Enzymes

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by tdog333, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Hey all,
    I'm trying to understand something about NAC and methylation, I hope someone can give me some insight.
    I have a good understanding of methylation and it's pathways, but I can't wrap my head around something.

    Why is NAC bad while taking methylation supplements? I've heard it methyl-traps and squeezes methylfolate out of cells and rids the body of b12 quickly. What I don't understand is why this doesn't happen naturally?

    It is my understanding that when methylation is started up again that glutathione levels will eventually rise. Wouldn't this rise in glutathione methyltrap? I'm a bit confused here.

    Why is supplementing with oral glutathione precursors different than the body naturally raising levels in terms of methyl-trap?

    I have elevated liver enzymes and low Glutathione levels. I know NAC is a great way to support the liver, that is why I ask.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Because NAC artificially raises glutathione levels in the body by means of supplemented additional glutathione, correct methylation function is the bodies natural producer of glutathione. Now a healthy person without impaired methylation will have no issue producing this anti oxidant, however many people with chronic illness acquire methylation issues secondary because of illness until the system settles, or some others are born with certain genetic mutations that put them at risk for methylation issues unless supplemented.

    If you have elevated liver enzymes I would stop all supplements until you find the underlying cause though, a lot of different supplements can raise liver enzyme levels.

    maybe post a list of what you take now and see if there is anything you can pinpoint, a lot of different herbs can do this especially.
     
  3. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    @Martial

    Okay that makes a little more sense. So is it because it's a synthetic form of glutathione basically? I'm guessing it would probably be a bad idea to take l-glutamine as well then

    Yeah that's what I figured too. I've cut out everything except the safer stuff. I ordered liv 52 and some other liver protecting herbs which people have used to lower liver enzymes.
    Supplements

    Vitamin E- 400IU
    Vitamin C- Varies, but atleast 2 grams a day
    SF722
    Methylfolate 1800-2400mcg
    AdenosylCobalamin ADB12 1MG
    Methyl B12 3-4MG
    L Carnatine Fumurate 1000MG
    Creatine 5G
    CoQ10 400-600MG
    D-Ribose 10-15G

    Peak ATP 600MG
    NAD B3 2x 25 MG sublingual

    Niagen NAD Booster 500MG
    Tryptophan before bed 1G
    Melatonin 3MG
    Liver Support with Milk Thistle(coincidentally I haven't been taking this for a few weeks but I started again today)
    NT Factor-Phophotidylcholine 3 scoops a day
    BodyBioPC 2-3 pills with each scoop of NT factor
    Trace Minerals
    O.N.E Pure Encapsulations Multi Vitamin 1/2 pill every other day
    Selenium Cruciferate 800 mcg
    GABA(before bed) 500mg
    Pantothenic Acid 500 mg
    Cod Liver Oil 2 pills every other day
    Digestive enzymes with food

    Betaine HCL with food
    Vitamin D 5000-10000 IU/day
    Zinc 50mg/day
    Potassium varies
    Monolaurin varies

    Bacillus Coagulans and Multi Strain probiotic

    Monolaurin as lauricidin 3 scoops a day (9Grams)
    Gymnema Sylvestre 2x week
    Oil of Oregano 15-20 drops a day(possible reason for elevation due to die off??)

    Peppermint Oil 3x day before meals (Die off also maybe?)
    Colostrum 1g/day

    PQQ 20mg/day
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  4. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Wow that is a pretty sophisticated and impressive supplement regime! Well it could be die off then, maybe you should focus on de toxing whatever toxins are being released in your system. It could be a sign that your liver is just working extra hard, though using supplements in general tends to work the liver too..

    DId you have homocysteine and methionine levels tested? Could be possible that you have very elevated methionine from all the supplements and this could cause issues and raise liver enzymes as a result.
    I would use P5P alongside the methylation supplements so you can convert the methionine, this is necessary for people with a certain CBS mutation I believe, but 10mg a day will help a lot and low enough of a dose to not cause issues for other people without the mutation regardless, you should also supplement a basic b complex with low levels of the vitamins, with folate instead of folic acid added; taking high doses of b12 and folate can deplete other b vitamin levels. Thorne has a great basic b complex for this too. You can even empty out part of the pills powder to get a smaller dose.

    With the amount of supplements you are taking it is hard to pinpoint anything specific because those all don't look like things that would cause issues, but everyone is different and side effect profiles for supplements are not very well known. Though it seems you have been using them for a while and this has only been a recent problem.. Has there been anything recently added since it happened?
     
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  5. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    NAC isn't a synthetic form of glutathione, it's a glutathione precursor. Some people find it really useful, others have trouble with it. There is no good evidence that I know of to say that it is bad for everyone. I use it when I can feel I am struggling after chem exposures and it's really helpful. One way to see how it affects you is to just start with single low doses when you are stable and see if you have any ill effects. The other option is Acetyl Glutathione, but it is super expensive. The one known downside to NAC is that it can irritate mucous membranes.
     
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  6. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I think it works great, just contridicted while using certain methylation protocols, because a methylation protocol is supposed to charge the body to create more on its own, NAC produces liver reduced glutathione as well, the combo of the two together can cause a contradiction it seems.

    If I was not on a methylation protocol I would jump on NAC very quick. Along with whey protein powder.

    I didn't mean to say synthetic, just supplemental, because it raises the liver reduced levels of glutathione substantially through a supplemented form.
     
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  7. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    For some of us though, a methylation protocol doesn't appear to produce enough glutathione to meet demands. So for some, NAC is clearly a useful thing to add in, when used at the right doses. Just like SAM-E and ALA can be, which also raise glutathione. I think it's good to be wary of blanket statements. If I had avoided NAC after reading this forum my quality of life would be much worse. Just my 2c :)
     
  8. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    NAC definitely helps me, even when getting 2 mega doses of hydroxoB12 per week, and normal amounts of B vitamins, C, etc.
     
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  9. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Good idea, I was thinking of asking for a hcy test but I will also ask for methionine!

    Well I actually haven't had my liver enzymes tested in about a year, and I wasn't taking any of the supplement above except creatine a year ago haha. So pretty hard to say.

    I think I just need to speed up phase II detox of my liver, cut out the antimicrobials and all unneccesary supplements for now and hope that helps. The detox like you mentioned will be good too, maybe I'll do a liver flush

    I still don't quite get the whole glutathione methyltrap theory.
    What about stuff like l-glutamine, milk thistle(silymarin), glycine, taurine, and selenium?

     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  10. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Nevermind I found out why, it looks like it's a backregulation method. So if Glutathione rises too high b12 is used to remove it from the body. So I think it should be fine to supplement with precursors since my glutathione levels were very low before. I just have to be careful once my glutathione goes up.

     
  11. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Those are great but avoid L Glutamine for sure, people with CFS, among other chronic illnesses have a toxic load of glutamate and quinolinic acid and glutamine can make it worse, in response to the other posts I suppose NAC can be helpful for some, I am no professional so just answering off what I learned so far.

    I believe Rob Lynch mentioned it can be helpful for some people and disastrous for others. I do not understand why though, something to do with CBS mutations, and similar traits in genetic mutations though. I think it really comes down to personal genetics again though and this is why getting genetic testing is so important, hard to work with new ideas when you are not sure what needs to be fixed.
     
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  12. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the heads up! But for some reason my quinolinic acid is very low, my organic acids test showed it being below normal 0.o Pretty weird, I'm still trying to figure it out
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  13. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Well you are taking a bunch of system assisting supplements, perhaps the massive amounts of phospolipids has something to do with it lol
     
  14. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Yeah that would make sense, but I actually got the OAT done a few months ago when I was only on about half of those supplements haha(no phospholipids of mitochondria stuff)
     

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