The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Mystery of the Killer Bs

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by picante, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Hello co-travelers down the methylation pathway. I've been absent and then barely here because I picked up an intestinal bug and my gastrointestinal tract decided to turn itself inside out. That was 2 weeks ago exactly. I couldn't even hold water down.

    After the initial "emptying" I ate nothing, but got to work on rehydration & minerals. Then grapefruit on day 3. Then white rice. Then a bit of red meat. I'm making progress, but I have 7.5 pounds/3.5 kilos to regain.

    So the active B12 protocol went out the window. And to tell you the truth, I was getting more and more sensitive to B12s/folate even before that. It was discouraging me. I was down to 1000 mcg MeB12 / 1500 mcg AdB12 / 1000 mcg Mefolate per day, plus cofactors.

    Whenever I went above that, or whenever I added Dr. Lynch's B-minus, I would get:
    hot flashes
    anger & dwelling on people who've treated me poorly
    neck pain in the center right smack between my skull & my atlas
    crushing fatigue to the point of being unable to work or do household stuff

    I have tried a half-dozen times to add in that B-complex that everyone says is so important. After this bacterial thing (which also got my DH two days later), I was so clueless about how to restart the protocol that I started trying @ahmo's method of asking my body. (I have not had very good luck with strong muscle testing in the past -- my body has a habit of "flipping" yes & no around in the middle of a session with any practitioner.)

    I did manage to get a few answers before yes & no became identical, LOL. One answer was that 1/4 capsule of the B-minus was too much, and I should try 1/8. And that it was because that was all the B2 I could tolerate.

    Edited to say that the 1/8 capsule brought on those infernal symptoms again.

    To be continued...
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
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  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Sorry you have had these issues. Its very very hard to figure out what is causing problems, I had major issues with B vitamins in 1999 and to this date have not figured it out.
     
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  3. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    In the meantime, I had run across a thread on B1: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/pro-health-article-on-b1.34308/page-2#post-572220

    @Gondwanaland steered me over to a thread with a link where I found the exact symptoms above in a list of thiamine-depletion symptoms. (My favorite was "enervating fatigue".)

    After a morning & afternoon of "enervating fatigue" today (from taking 2 X 500 mcg MeB12 yesterday and extra folate to go with), I made DH drive me to Natural Grocers and picked out a thiamine supp. Asking my body, it indicated that the only form it was happy about was the one without the HCl (Solaray thiamine mononitrate 100 mg).

    I took slightly over half the capsule when we got home (I had to take it out of the gelatin capsule, anyway). Within 45 minutes I had enough energy to get through doing the dishes. A couple hours later I took the rest of that cap.

    Isn't that a TON of thiamine? Is that why I can't tolerate even 1/8 of a capsule of B-comp? I've been gradually depleting thiamine down to a critical threshold?

    Edited to say that 1/8 cap has 2.5 mg of B2.

    Other thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
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  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Holy crap!!!!! :jaw-drop:

    I am so sorry you went thru such a rough path :depressed:

    I think your bowel infection might have worsened B1 depletion :cautious:

    Interesting about the HCl, someone posted about HCl supps being bad, don't remember now who or where :confused:

    I have an unopened bottle of B1-HCl an a Benfothiamine that never made anything for me, but perhaps I should try higher doses.

    Please share your method of asking your body :balanced:

    I wish you and DH a full recovey :angel:

    Please keep us updated! :hug:
     
  5. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Thanks for all the lovely emoticons, izzy. :angel: DH recovered much faster than I did. But he's still 5 pounds under. (He's lean to begin with -- a X-C ski-racer body.)

    @ahmo has a description of the options somewhere. I was using the one where you make a circle with your thumb and index finger, and interlock the R & L-hand circles. Starting with "give me a yes" vs. "give me a no", I pulled. I broke one circle with "yes" and it stayed solid with "no". (I would not be at all surprised if it's the opposite for ahmo.)

    So that works for me until "yes" and "no" become identical (both unbroken / solid). Occasionally I ask it if my name is Julie to see whether it has flipped. My experience is that "flipping" always happens during strong muscle testing.

    I have someone who checks the pulse of the cerebro-spinal fluid on his clients to get answers from the body. That seems to work more consistently; however there was one famous occasion when it flipped, and the answers we got sent me down the wrong path entirely, until I realized.:aghhh:
     
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  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

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  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    That's the method I first had success with. I now use the similar rhythm of the lymph system. I can post instructions if you want. And you're correct, for me using the thumb/index finger method, yes remains connected, no is weak, opens up.

    Glad to see you return after such a patch of misery! :ill::hug::balloons:
     
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  8. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    That's intriguing. I didn't know it had a rhythm. How do you detect it?
     
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  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @PeterPositive Hi Peter. Place you hand lightly on opposite forearm or on either thigh. Close your eyes and imagine your hand as a raft, gliding on water. Then tune in to notice if you can feel a slight movement that moves up, towards your head, and then reverses and moves down, towards feet. About 5-7 second intervals. That's it.;)
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thank you so much for the link, Julie. I have been searching for an explanation as to why B1 and B3 can cause hypothyroidism, and perhaps this is it. Too much B1 (and B3) might promote excess T4->T3 conversion and deplete iodine. B12 did that to me (by another route, I assume).
     
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  11. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I came to the inverse conclusion: not enough B1 will limit T4->T3 conversion:
    "60% of NADPH is generated in a pathway known as the “pentose phosphate pathway”. This pathway is also responsible for generating the 5-carbon sugar Ribose, which is used to synthesize DNA. The major nutrient promoter in the pentose phosphate pathway is Vitamin B-1, thiamine. Thiamine deficiency has been pegged as a major culprit in varying states of oxidative stress, including encephalopathy and lipid peroxidation (5)."​

    I just wonder if this is what originally messed up my cellular thyroid metabolism post-EBV. I'm pretty sure I had Hashi's before that, but not the conversion problem.
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    My conversion problem started after high dose folate, and consequent B1 depletion o_O
     
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  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @picante, sorry to hear you've been having such a bad time!

    Chiming in to say you might also take a look at niacin in the B complex as being a culprit in your problems, too. Supplemental niacin is not my friend and is a no-no for me even now, after I am stable with methylation protocol. I can supplement every single one of the other B vitamins but not any form of niacin, including NADH, nicotinamide(sp?), etc. None of it. Any of it causes me sides every time I try.

    I know a lot of people like it but thought I'd throw it out there for you to check into.

    Good luck. I hope things pick up! :)

    Edited to add: even tiny amounts of niacin or forms of niacin cause the problems. I've had sides with as little as 5mg.
     
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  14. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Thank you, @whodathunkit. I've already found out that I don't tolerate even tiny amounts of straight niacin, so perhaps I'm not tolerating the inositol hexanicotinate, either.

    What are your side effects?
     
  15. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @picante: like methyltrap or folate deficiency. They can vary. Last time it happened was from a very tiny dose of NADH, and that was just a general feeling of unwellness and grumpiness/moodiness not long after taking it. I didn't take enough of that to throw me into proper methyltrap, and I figured out right away what was happening because I was deliberately experimenting with the NADH.

    But I took B complex on and off for years, on faith, because "B complex is good for you!" Always wondered what my problem was that B complex didn't make me feel any better and usually I wound up feeling worse. Now I know why.

    Inositol hexanicotinate is also a no-no for me. Can't do supplemental niacin in any form. Only niacin I get is what comes in my food.
     
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  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @picante do you get a rash from B1? I don't think so since you are taking enough folate, right?
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    No rash. I'm taking enough mefolate to keep away the low back inflammation: right now that's 2.5 mg per day, and it will go up if/when I raise MeB12 (1000 mcg) and AdB12 (1500 mcg). I am having to re-titrate very cautiously because of the thiamine depletion.

    I think I've been taking too little B1, actually. Two days ago I raised it to 300 mg Benfotiamine + 100 mg thiamine mononitrate per day, and I'm starting to have a little more energy. This indicates that I was really depleted -- possibly long-term, but also from the intestinal bug.

    The weight that came off isn't going back on. I'm stuck at 116 pounds (52,5 kilos). If I were short, I wouldn't be worried, but I'm 5'9" (1m75cm).
     
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  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    It took me one year to regain some weight, but I didn't supplement with B1 because of low thyroid. Now that my thyroid is finally well supported I tried some benfo and it made an old rash reappear (a stubborn one on my right thigh close to the knee), and I think it is because of oxidized folate in my serum. Anyway, I started taking whey about a month ago and it seems to have made a difference.

    I have just tested serum B12 and folic acid and both are high, obviously waiting for conversion to an usable form:

    B12 847.3 pg/mL
    Folic acid 16.5 ng/mL (4.6 - 18.7)

    Unfortunately to dr who ordered the tests didn't add homocysteine...
     

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