The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Mycoplasma pneumonia treatment. Is Chronic or acute different protocol

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by minkeygirl, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    In October I tested positive for mycoplasma pneumonia IgG and IgM. I posted the labs on PR. Every protocol I've seen (I'm doing Dr Nicolson's with my NP for now) says long term abx. It was suggested that once IgM was normal I was ok, but I have never seen anything that says once your IgM is normal then you stop the ABX. In fact Dr Nicolson specifically says don't stop taking them even if you feel better.

    I did see this on the Mayo Clinic site"

    "The continued presence or absence of antibodies cannot be used to determine the success or failure of therapy."


    Anybody know anything?

    Thanks and please tag me. I'll forget I wrote this.
     
    merylg likes this.
  2. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @minkeygirl
    @SOC
    I wonder if SOC could tell us more about this.
     
  3. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @helen1 thanks for posting that. That's pretty much what I thought but some docs won't treat without some labs to support it. Then it's treat till you feel good then do longer?

    But you still have to survive the abx.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  4. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I'm confused by this myself as my doc- Kaufman - seems to take IG levels seriously. But I also understand that their levels don't always run parallel to levels of infection, not sure why.

    @minkeygirl
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
  5. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    Some docs who know CFS believe what Kaufman does. My NP would have treated me but this just confirmed it.

    Also maybe levels too low to see in blood? My cmv IgM was positive but by PCR Nothing

    I know within 2 weeks of Startingherbal low dose of doxy which is all I could tolerate, I felt like I could breath better.
     
  6. SOC

    SOC

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    Not really, I'm no immunologist. :) But here's the best I can do with layman's knowledge and language.

    When you first get an infection you produce IgM antibodies. These are relatively short-lived, so IgM titres are only high after a recent infection or possibly a re-exposure. Slightly later your body produces IgG antibodies which continue in your body for decades. This is what confers immunity to many infections once you've had them. The fact that IgG antibodies continue is why some doctors not up on the details think high IgG titres only mean you've been exposed to the infection. The detail they forget or ignore is that IgG titres diminish slowly over time which is why we sometimes need booster vaccines. For example, some people develop shingles because their antibodies to VZV have diminished to the point where they no longer have sufficient IgG antibodies to VZV(aka Human Herpesvirus 3, aka HHV-3, aka chicken pox virus). The so-called shingles vaccine is a chicken pox booster.

    So IgG titres are not a measure of current or recent infection. They don't change quickly. However, high IgG titres in a person decades past their first infection is not expected. Titres should be decreasing slowly. This doesn't mean any positive titre is suggestive of an on-going or recent infection, but unusually high titres for your situation (age, time since original infection) could be.

    So in certain cases high IgG titres are suggestive of the immune system's need to produce an increased number of antibodies, for example in an active infection. So while a high titre in certain cases may suggest an on-going infection, treatment will not cause the IgG antibodies to drop rapidly. That's not the way IgG antibodies work. They hang around waiting to fight off any new exposures and only diminish slowly when they have not been needed for a long time. OTOH, if IgG titres are climbing, not diminishing, that suggests your body is trying to fight off the infection and is sending in the troops. So, while IgG titres are not particularly useful for measuring treatment success, they can, in certain circumstances, help to diagnose on-going or recurrent infections. That said, in some cases IgG titres will drop noticeably over several months, but it's not something that happens in every patient in every case, so you can't assume your titres will drop significantly within months of treatment.

    On the other side of the coin, antibodies are produced by B-cells. If, for some reason your B-cells are unable to produce antibodies properly or in sufficient numbers, you could have low or normal antibody titres even if you have an active infection that would, in a healthy person, be controlled by an increase in IgG antibodies. In that case you could have an active infection but not high IgG titres.

    IgG titres are not an absolute indicator and are not easily interpreted in isolation by a layperson (or a good many doctors, for that matter). They are one of several clues used by knowledgeable doctors to interpret immune or infection status.

    Bottom line: IgG titres have their uses, but measuring short-term treatment success is generally not one of them.
     
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  7. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @SOC my question, which maybe wasn't clear, was more about IgM. It was suggested to me re: mycoplasma that if my IgM went down after taking doxy for a month, to normal range, then I was good.

    That goes against everything I've read about treating Mpn

    I have no idea now long it has been high but I've felt crap over 1 1/2 yrs. IgG has been high for ages.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  8. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    My Igg levels for this are high, but not IgM. Is Igg relevant?
     
  9. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @minkeygirl
    Have you read Dr. Garth Nicholsons stuff on mycoplasma? He knows maybe the most of anyone I've come across about it and gives specifics for treatment. Pretty sure tx was longer than a month.

    @drob31 That's kinda what we're wondering about; some ME doctors think its relevant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
  10. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @drob31 read soc's post. Talks about that very thing. Much has to do with symtoms

    @helen1 in my first post I said I'm doing nicolson's protocol. He says 6 months to start then 6 weeks on 2 weeks off. And keep doing it. Alternate abx and add Antifungals if you need to.

    I can't remember off the top of my head what he says about when to stop. But I don't remember him talking about labs to determine that. His website is massive

    I saw him speak 20 years ago snd he was saying the same thing. I asked him about gut issues and he said use the 2 weeks off to clean it up.
     
  11. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Oh oops sorry didn't see that! that's great that you're following his protocol.
     
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  12. LifeIsSweet

    LifeIsSweet

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    My IGG level is 5 according to Quest Diagnostics. I am very ill and getting worse. I went to the Stanford CFS clinic and the Dr. Hall prescribed three months of antibiotics. I also have high Herpes 1. So, after the antibiotics, I'm going to take antivirals. MY QUESTION is: Has anyone ever felt better after antibiotic treatment? I feel like I have a horrible head flu that never lets up. I don't know how much more of this I can handle.
     
  13. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I find if I take more than 100 mgs doxycycline I feel horrible. I think it's die off.

    I stick with 100 and everyone two weeks or so I go up to 150 mgs. After 2 days of feeling horrible I back down.

    At 100 mgs I had a noticeable improvement so for now I'm sticking with that.
     
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  14. LifeIsSweet

    LifeIsSweet

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    It's good to know you got some improvement. Thanks
     
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  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

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    Yes, I'm definitely doing better with some symptoms following lots of antibiotics.

    But if you're getting a nasty chronic headache, that might be an adverse reaction. There are usually other antibiotics in the same class which can have the same effect, but might be gentler on you. If a side-effect is making your life miserable, it's probably a good idea to talk to your doctor about it.
     
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  16. LifeIsSweet

    LifeIsSweet

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    Thanks for responding! And glad to hear the antibiotics are making a difference for you.

    I actually haven't started them yet, as I'm finishing a brutal course of antifungals. My head-flu feeling is the best way I can describe my CFS symptoms. I feel as if it's the worst flu of my life (more than just body pain). That and the crushing fatigue... I am just able to lean back on the couch, and work a little on the laptop and watch some tv. That's my life. I'm lucky I can do these things.

    Do you think a 3-month course of antibiotics might help, or would I need to stay on longer in order to feel better? After the antibiotics, the doctor wants me to clear up the Herpes with antivirals.
     
  17. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    No one can say how long you would have to be on antibiotics, or if a 3 month course will help. We are all different. All you can do is try. I know treatment for MPN is long term abx.

    I take ABX and an antiviral for positive IgM CMV and HHV-6. I'm not aware of any reason why you can't take both at once and my NP is rx'ing both.

    I have huge brain fog which is helped by the abx but not totally gone. I notice a flare in my fog and symptoms if my sleep is especially crappy or if I overdo. I feel like it's inflammation that causes it.

    As @Valentijn says, maybe a different abx would be easier on you? It's all trial and error. No simple answer
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    Valentijn likes this.

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