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My gut flora results

Discussion in 'Gastrointestinal and Urinary' started by jpcv, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    SE coast, Brazil
    Hi , I´m posting the results of my gut microbiome test.
    Some observations:

    - I have been treating my gut for 6 months, so this test doesn´t reflect how my gut was before, I know it was worse because I had more symptoms before
    - Diet : low carb, gluten free, no cereals .
    - Probiotics:Lactobacilus( Acidophilus,Rhamnosus,, Gasseri,Bulgaricus, Casei, plantarum, paracasei, Reuteri, Salivarius) Bifidobacterium( lactis, , longum)
    -Magnesium, Curcumin, Omega-3, Vit D, Glutamine
    -Bio PAMPS from lactobacilos+ glisodin

    See next post for results
     
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  2. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    The test shows diminished numbers of total microorganisms
    Low E. coli
    Low bífido, bacteroides
    Increased numbers of Candida

    My IgG food test also showed positive antibodies against Candida
    Although Candida can be found in up to 70% of healthy persons, its presence concomitant with dysbiosis may not be so harmless...
     

    Attached Files:

  3. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    Can the resident microbiome experts please give your oppinion?
     
  4. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Looks like your Candida levels are 20 times the maximum normal level, which might I guess be considered "Candida overgrowth", although I don't know much about this.

    There is a lot alternative health speculation surrounding Candida overgrowth: at one time Candida overgrowth became a very fashionable diagnosis given by alternative health practitioners to anyone who felt fatigue and vague malaise. But I don't think any studies have confirmed this idea, though I guess there might be some truth to it.


    Antifungal drugs like nystatin or fluconazole are effective against Candida. There was some research showing that the niacinamide form of vitamin B3 strongly reduced Candida albicans virulence.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  7. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I don't think culture based tests give any idea of what is really going on with gut bacteria.

    They can detect only aerotolerant organisms which are readily culturable. These are only minor gut constituents (less than 10%).

    As a result, such tests distort our notions of what is and isn't important. For example, these tests always make much of E. coli and tell us we have too much or too little. In reality, E.coli is a very minor constituent of the gut (typically <0.1%) with no special role that I am aware of.

    The much vaunted Lactobacillus is also normally a minor constituent in the bowel and plays no known role there. It is important in the mouth, vagina and possibly small intestine, but not in the bowel. Much of what is found in the bowel is transiting through.

    So frankly I certainly wouldn't be worrying about so-called low E. coli and there's nothing else much of obvious concern (ie no clearly pathogenic species which these types of tests often can pick up).

    Low bifido on this test might mean something or maybe not. It wouldn't hurt to try prebiotic supplements which can boost bifido - eg raw potato starch, inulin, GOS.

    As for the Candida, as @Hip says, this is a very murky area which, apart from disseminated candidosis in immunocompromised patients, consists of a lot of claims and very little validation.

    Candida is a normal gut constituent and according to this test, your levels are only a little elevated. Whether this is a problem is difficult to say.

    There are tests for anti-candida antibodies which are used to help diagnose disseminated candidosis, but whether the test you had is a reliable version of these antibody tests I don't know.

    Only you can decide whether to act on the basis of these tests, but personally I'd be wanting more evidence before I embarked on antifungal drugs. Even Nystatin, which stays in the gut and so doesn't cause systemic problems, is not without difficulty. It works by punching holes in fungal cells. Fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, so it can affect cells lining our gut also.

    Do you have any symptoms that could clearly be attributed to candida overgrowth in the gut? For example, I once have a gut test which showed high levels of Candida. I also had serious perianal itch and inflammation and in those circumstances I was willing to take a course of Nystatin (which cleared up the problem).
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Would you know if there are any tests that can give a better picture of the gut microbiome? I read that for Candida, this sticks to the intestinal lining, and that you cannot get an accurate picture of the microbes on the intestinal lining by analyzing the stool. I think this applies to other gut flora too: you really need to know what is happening on the intestinal lining, rather than in the stool.
     
  9. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    Thank you @Hip and @alicec for your tips.
    Although it might be true that what matters happens on the intestinal lining and maybe it's not reflected in the stool, some people have claim d some improvements using this type of exam to treat dysbiosis.
    Regarding Candida, I've been searching the literature and it seems that Candida can be more virulent in the absence of normal intestinal flora.
     
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  10. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    The well known association between reduced barrier function of the intestinal mucosa (“leaky gut”), disturbances in the gut-associated immune system, changes in the intestinal microflora, and atopic diseases such as neurodermatitis, may bring special problems for patients with corresponding genetic susceptibility and intestinal Candida albicans colonization (19). However, this concept requires additional clinical studies.

    According to current knowledge, all that remains of Truss’s Candida hypersensitivity syndrome is the assumption of a relationship with the irritable bowel syndrome and the knowledge that Candida in the intestine may function as an “allergy trigger factor.”



    APA Schulze, J., & Sonnenborn, U. (2009). Yeasts in the Gut: From Commensals to Infectious Agents. Deutsches Ärzteblatt International, 106(51-52), 837–842. http://doi.org/10.3238/arztebl.2009.0837
     
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  11. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    DNA based test give a much better overall picture.

    Tests such as those available from American Gut and uBiome sequence part of the 16S rRNA gene which has been well characterised in bacteria (and archaea) and can reliably detect bacteria and archaea to the genus level. Some but not all species can be distinguished.

    Whole genome sequencing can detect all organisms - eukaryotes and viruses as well as bacteria and archaea. American Gut has offered a very expensive test using this method for some time but as the technique has been refined, it should get cheaper and will presumably replace 16S sequencing.

    A university spin-off in my home town in Australia is offering just such a test soon and I intend to try it out.

    All of these tests start with faecal samples.

    You are correct that there are differences in the microbial composition of the luminal and mucosal layers but it is more of a continuum rather than two exclusive zones. Even organisms that live pretty much exclusively in the mucosal layer, such as Akkermansia (which lives on host derived mucous), are found in the lumen in significant amounts (the uBiome average for this genus is 1.2% in faecal samples).

    Studies have been done comparing the differences and it seems to be the consensus that unless there are special reasons for wanting to look at the mucosal layer, faecal sampling gives a good general picture. It would certainly be the first test before very invasive mucosal sampling was contemplated (biopsy in the process of colonoscopy).
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Are those DNA tests quantitative though? That is, can they tell the relative population size of the gut flora, so that you can know if you have dysbiosis or overgrowth?
     
  13. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Each organism is reported as % of the total bacterial count for the sample as well as being compared to average incidence.

    Of course there is no single ideal composition that we should all aspire to so concepts like dysbiosis and overgrowth are not straightforward. A certain amount of knowledge is needed to interpret how important differences from the norm are. Furthermore there is a great deal of redundancy in function so the absence of some genera isn't necessarily a problem either. And then there are many gut constituents whose function is basically unknown.

    The gut microbiota is far more complex than the earlier culture-based tests have led us to believe and the DNA based tests have enabled us to accumulate more information than we currently understand.

    Still we do know a fair bit about some of the major gut constituents and a DNA-based test can certainly put in perspective whether "overgrowths" identified by culture actually exist.
     
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  14. Eneia

    Eneia

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    Regarding Candida, I believe it can be eradicated. The problem, again my personal belief, is that it seems to fill a void in the microbiome, so if it doesn't get replaced by something else, it will come back. A round of additional probiotics like mentioned by @Lassesen on his blog https://cfsremission.com/2016/11/18/updated-model-and-treatment-suggestions/ might be the replacement that stick?

    Eradication-wise, a basic candida diet: no gluten, no sugar, no processed foods, plus antifungals: cook all you can with coconut oil, then supps like olive leaf, caprylic acid, grapefruit seed extract in rotation, gymnema sylvestre to prevent the candida from transforming in hyphen(?) form so it can't hide, it's also very good if you crave sweet stuff, the cravings aren't that bad once on it. Molybdenum and chlorella (in coconut cream) for die off. Takes a month for me to be done with it.

    I am ordering a ubiome profile and after that I would love to try a few weeks with the probiotics. Or go for FMT if I finally convince myself the results will last.
    @Lasessen I wonder if anyone has combined your protocol with FMT already (maybe to contain something like SIBO)? I'm slowly reading your blog

    @jpcv are you aware of Lasessen's blog CFSRemission.com? I'm talking about this on your thread because it might be relevant to you.
     
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  15. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    Thank you @Eneia for the tips, I´m aware of Lasessen`s blog, but I have yet to read it in detail, which I´ll do now.
     

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