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My biggest fear is deconditioning

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I'm feeling this SO HARD today. I spend 90% off my time on the couch, as getting up and doing things makes me so tired and out of breath, but some days I just want to push through out of frustration and low self esteem. :mad:

I know it's not helpful and would likely lead to more frustration and feeling worse but some days I'd much rather deal with PEM than feeling so trapped, useless, and terrible about myself :(
The one best way to make more mitochondria is to exercise. We need as many mitochondria as we can, making as much ATP as possible. Overdoing it and having PEM is counterproductive, though. So, the challenge here is to optimize our exercise without going backwards.

I consider any little thing to be exercise. I was fortunate to go through a cancer rehab program going into this. They put a heart rate monitor on me and helped me understand how to exercise with my heart rate. They taught me to cope with fatigue.

I am a survivor. I tackle every day life like training for a triathlon, its just that some days, getting to the toilet or the refrigerator are the events...

But, other days, I have a little more energy, so I calculate what exactly I can do, and lay down and recharge when my batteries run down. I've also found activities I can do, nothing aerobic, but I can stretch, lift weights, do some yoga poses.

It feels fulfilling to have done something, and I'm in decent shape, just steadily putting small efforts forth.

If I were to give in to this illness and not try, I'd kill myself... I have to keep trying, no matter how small the effort and result.
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Location
The other side.
I'm feeling this SO HARD today. I spend 90% off my time on the couch, as getting up and doing things makes me so tired and out of breath, but some days I just want to push through out of frustration and low self esteem. :mad:

I know it's not helpful and would likely lead to more frustration and feeling worse but some days I'd much rather deal with PEM than feeling so trapped, useless, and terrible about myself :(
6 Years ago I could deadlift 180KG, squat 160 and bench 106, 3 years previously I had been convinced by someone that free weights were a useful and above all controllable method of stopping, or at least slowing, the physical decline caused by M.E. if it was done carefully, slowly and with large rest periods in between sets. And I needed that because at the time it looked like I was only a few months away from needing a wheelchair, which living alone in a 2nd floor flat with no lift would have been problematic.

By the standards of other people doing the sort of training I was, those aren't large weights, I wasn't strong, I wasn't weak but I definitely wasn't strong. By the time I stopped lifting I had gone from being only able to lift 40KG once, and getting PEM'd, but being able to walk several miles, slowly and only a couple of times a week, to being able to lift 180KG but only able to walk a few meters, being constantly PEM'd and literally everything else had gone from my life, the brain fog was crippling, the exhaustion was crippling, I was so sick I could barely stand, but I still wanted to train.

Role on to the last month. I've got a lot done in the last month, even though I haven't been on top form I'm only moderate most of the time ATM. I've fixed a washing machine (drain pump), I've put up a cupboard and fitted a spice rack to it, I've moved the bedroom around - in short 30 years ago a light afternoon's work - it's taken me a month.

To do it, on top of routine life things I've need to supplement, CoQ10 (to lift brain fog a bit), magnesium (erm...coz it seemed like a good idea, can't remember why but..), a good B complex, L-theanine, even tried, again D3 (really, really bad idea) and B1 (probably a mistake - come off it for a few days waiting to see if my temperature comes down to a sensible level).

A couple of days ago I moved a couple of 20KG plates to put them under the bed (I still live in hope that one day, one day I might be able to lift again). They were heavy, but no heavier than I remember them being.

Last night I decided to move the stack of 1.25KG weights and put them under the bed, I couldn't even lift them individually and hold them level (not needed for carrying them but when I'm trying to put them in a stack under the bed the ability to lift and hold one more or less level is needed), the day before I could do it with 20KG plates. A cup of tea weighs about a kilo, a dinner plate with food on it weighs about a kilo - the ability to hold objects weighing about a kilo level is fairly important unless you like eating/drinking through straws.

Today, thanks I think largely to the CoQ10 I was able to reprogram a Raspberry Pi to run "Scratch 2" for a nephew, it took around an hour, including googling how to do it, setting up the card programmer and configuring/testing. Pretty much all sit down, trival work (I used to be heavily into breaking encryption systems etc. - flashing a card should be a trivial job even if my brain has been removed, placed in a jar, microwaved and fed to 34 cats).

It finished me, crashed me, totally, couldn't even sit up, several hours later I'm only able to sit up due to morphine, which probably means it's a bad idea, tomorrow is unlikely to be fun at all.

Trying to maintain an image, or desire, to remain "fit" if you have M.E., whilst perfectly natural, is in my experience, ultimately a bad idea.
 
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bspg

Plant Queen
Messages
547
Location
USA
Thanks @Woolie. :hug:

I try to maintain self esteem by remembering that productivity has many different forms. I know that reflection and self care are two of those forms. I guess it's just hard when they are the ONLY forms I have 99% of the time. I yearn for so much more. :(

@Learner1 I'm glad you are able to maintain some regular activity for yourself. I do try to consider making food, getting to the bathroom, loading the dishwasher as activity. I've never been "in shape" though I was active as a child and exercised regularly in my 20s. It seems no matter how active I was, I could never progress in my fitness. I now believe ME/CFS is the reason behind this and that I've actually been suffering from it for a very long time. I just wasn't diagnosed until 2016.

I think that trying to get in shape for years (and not being able to) combined with the deconditioning I'm facing now just makes the idea of physical fitness seem unattainable for me and it's extremely upsetting. I long to have a body that looks and feels good, that can hike and run and jump and travel. I've never had that (except as a young child) and having ME/CFS feels like a giant slap in the face. :(
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Location
The other side.
..... I long to have a body that looks and feels good, that can hike and run and jump and travel. I've never had that (except as a young child) and having ME/CFS feels like a giant slap in the face. :(
ah - in that respect some of us have the edge. Due to my wonderful genetics no matter how fit, buff or whatever I was to get, I'd still be a short, squat ugly git - so no pressure there then :)

At the end of the day if you are able to survive largely independently you will be engaging in enough activity to avoid clinical deconditioning. A large part of the reason for my post above was to show the massive difference in my capability between my current "normal" M.E. and when about to crash. Looking at the later you'd say I was deconditioned, looking at the former not so much.
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Thanks @Woolie. :hug:

I try to maintain self esteem by remembering that productivity has many different forms. I know that reflection and self care are two of those forms. I guess it's just hard when they are the ONLY forms I have 99% of the time. I yearn for so much more. :(

@Learner1 I'm glad you are able to maintain some regular activity for yourself. I do try to consider making food, getting to the bathroom, loading the dishwasher as activity. I've never been "in shape" though I was active as a child and exercised regularly in my 20s. It seems no matter how active I was, I could never progress in my fitness. I now believe ME/CFS is the reason behind this and that I've actually been suffering from it for a very long time. I just wasn't diagnosed until 2016.

I think that trying to get in shape for years (and not being able to) combined with the deconditioning I'm facing now just makes the idea of physical fitness seem unattainable for me and it's extremely upsetting. I long to have a body that looks and feels good, that can hike and run and jump and travel. I've never had that (except as a young child) and having ME/CFS feels like a giant slap in the face. :(
You are so brave to keep trying in the face of all this. It is very humbling to not do what one wants to do with a body that betrays us. I've slept on sidewalks, the floor of stores, anywhere, when I've been out and above my limit... Still, I'm thankful for what I can do.

I am very ill, and have labs that show it. I have a long path ahead of me to get well, if it works.

One thing that I think has kept me functioning better than what one would expect in my situation is optimizing my nutrition, through a nutrient dense diet, oral supplements and nutritional IV therapy.

The supplementation is aimed at supporting mitochondrial health and function, building muscle, reducing oxidative stress, optimizing methylation and detoxification, and improving gut health. I also take hormones like DHEA, testosterone, pregnenolone, hydrocortisone, and T3/T4 (based on lab testing) that promote strength, energy, and metabolism.

I think its a multiheaded beast we're fighting, and we need to use a well-designed box of tools to combat the situation. They won't all be effective, but curiosity, persistence, and discipline in using them go a long way.

There are no perfect solutions and what helps each of us will be different, but I believe that there's a way out of this mess for each of us.
 

TenuousGrip

Senior Member
Messages
297
The one best way to make more mitochondria is to exercise. We need as many mitochondria as we can, making as much ATP as possible. Overdoing it and having PEM is counterproductive, though. So, the challenge here is to optimize our exercise without going backwards

ISTR reading somewhere that slow and long (say ... going for a one hour walk) was much worse for us than short-duration, high-intensity exercise (say ... running for ten seconds, then resting, then running for ten seconds again ... a few times, or very brief periods of relatively intense weight lifting).

Among other things, ISTR reading that the short-duration, high-intensity exercise was much better at building mitochondria.

Anybody know if this is "true" (meaning: the current conventional wisdom) ?

Anecdotally ... it seems true for me.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Ooh... Before I got sick, I did HIIT (high intensity interval training) 3 x a week, with 8 cycles over 20 minutes. It was great. I burned fat around my middle and had great abs for a 52 year old woman.

HIIT is great for building mitochondria. However, it triggers PEM in me now. I cannot do intense exercise at all. I crash and nap wherever I am.

What does work on a good day is an 8-12 minute warm-up on a cardio machine with heart rate at 120-150 (which doesn't take much effort to get to), a nap, then 2 circuits of 6-8 weight exercises at 50% of the weight I think I should do, with a nap in the middle.

This after taking hydrocortisone, NADH, d-ribose, magnesium, and coffee... and drinking water with creatine, keto salts, and BCAAs.

As long as I keep my heart rate managed and lie down the second I feel dizzy until I feel ok again, I can get through it.

And, on lousy days, I stay in bed, stretch, or do basic things to survive, depending on how I feel.
 
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stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
Before I got sick, I was glorious :) I could work circles around anybody. But of course, part of that was energy derived from Bipolar Disorder. I was trying to exercise but now I do gardening and woodworking with a lot of hand tools. I have beautiful exercise equipment but even though I am largely recovered there are sobering facts to keep in mind.

I did not end up CFS because I have perfectly functioning mitochondria. And recovered or not they haven't gone anywhere. Energy will always be a currency for me to spend wisely. I choose to spend it on productive activities and am having a great time. Yes, I have to rest sometimes and then I am studying Spanish or working on the photos I just took.

While I might not be able to keep up to some people my age, I am having a great time. I use my energy wisely.