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Muscle weakness and endurance: Solved (i hope)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by place, May 18, 2012.

  1. place

    place Be Strong!

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    As I took the Active B' protocol, I progressivly lost strength and muscle endurance.

    I took Magnisium, but it did not have a direct effect on it: However, I continued to take it as a part of my regimen.

    With in 4 days of taking 2000 L carnitine, I have started to regain my strength (not where it was but making progress). I am taking equal doses of Fumerate and tartrate.

    As I know others have had issues with this, I will update if anything changes.
     
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Place,

    I got that same surprise with carnitine. My arobic capability went from 17 minutes on the Nordic Trac to 34 minutes literally overnight with the first dose. My muscles also suddenly started repairing and growing and the last of themuscle pain disappeared in a couple of weeks
     
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  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    I just want to note that several studies have shown that carnitine is low in ME/CFS. I think the reason is that methylation is required to make carnitine in the body. One of the main roles of carnitine is to usher fatty acids into the mitochondria of cells to be burned as fuel. In the urine organic acids test results that many people have posted or sent to me, I usually find that the fatty acids markers are showing buildup of omega oxidation of fatty acids, which occurs when there is a carnitine deficiency. Under these conditions, it makes sense that your muscles would respond to carnitine supplementation, since it raises the supply of fuel to their mitochondria. When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  4. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,
    WOuld this be high levels of adipic, suberic acid etc ?

    GP
     
  5. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Thanks everyone!
    I hate to say this publicaly because so many people suffer but after several days on carnitine, I was able to swing an ax for a good half hour (tree root removal). I decided to stop taking it this weekend to make sure it was the carnintine and not the magnesium. My weakness came back by Sunday and I could not swing the ax. I took 1000 carnitine mid day and was able to finish my work several hours later.

    However, Rich states: "When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves."

    Does this mean I'm not lifting any blockage? How long does it take to lift it? I want to correct not suppliment but is this to much to ask?
     
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, GP.

    Yes!

    Rich
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    HI, Place.

    I'm glad that carnitine is working for you. It takes time to lift the partial methylation cycle block, like a few months or so.
    Check the results of our clinical study:

    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/ww...ethylStudy.pdf

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.


    Perhaps its time for Anna Russel SINGS AGAIN wherein she sings her own style of 4-part harmony Gilbert And Sullivan operetta singing "Things would be so different if they were not as they are ...".

    My experience of starting l-carnitiine fumarate approximately 2 years after starting mb12 and having methylation startup, 18 months after starting SAM-e and having enhanced methylation, then 15 months after adenosylb12 and ATP startup it was l-carnitne fumarate that had the most massive startup of anything I took, that lasted longer than any other startup and immediately increased muscle work capcaity doubling my arobic exercise capacity overnight and causing immediate muscle growth and healing startup along with another drop in potassium. Funny, isn't it, that I was still desparately deficient of carnitine 2 years after having a MAJOR METHYLATION STARTUP, the partial methylation block 2 years gone and still way too little carnitine.

    I used to think that too, that carnitine wasn't "essential" because the body made plenty. That assumption and others like it kept me sick for decades. I find that these kinds of assumptions and "shoulds" are very produuctive hunting grounds for finding supplements that work with a major difference.

    I found that the more assumptions of that sort that I could act counter to, the more and faster I healed. So much for all those assumptions and shoulds, NONSENSE!

    A couple of times after that I did experiement, discontinuing carnitine for a while, switiching forms and so on. Then when I had startup responses all over again and had to titrate again, but faster than the first time, it was obvious that my body wasn't able to make enough and likely never had been. Counting on any of the circular dependencies to work by leaving out those substances the body "should" make proved quite fallacious.

    So we have to start methylation: mb12+ Metafolin+ TMG (sometimes). However, as individual trials have shown, mb12 and cofactors alone are not sufficient to start methylation in many people and "MB12 effect" but instead also have to have adb12 + L-carnitine-fumarate as many MB12 reactions also need ATP. So in order to have the methylation startup to supply methylation to supply carnitine one needs adb12 AND carnitine to supply ATP. So it appears that in many people one has to take l-carniitne to have enough carnitine for the Krebs cycle to make more carnitine.

    There are some people in this group that don't have ANY startup until carnitine is taken. There are some in which it is even more delayed, they have to take TMG also to enable methylation startup needed to allow atp startup needed to allow methylation startup, all needed to make more carnitine.

    Not questioning these assumptions will often keep people sick until they die.

    On the other hand I do not suggest that anybody be taking all sorts of expensive things they may not need so retesting perodically is a good idea. Don't forget that it is usually combinations that make things work, not single substances. Also, discontinuance of carnitine might not show up as a deficiency that affects symtpoms for 6 months or more which seems to indicate that the difference between what is made and waht is needed may be only a small gap rather than a complete lack. In any case the degree of deficiency increases slowly in many so don't look for a 3 day change in everything.

    In retesting, I was able to cut back l-carnitine fumarate to 500mg/day instead of the 1000mg/day I needed early on. The same time of occurrance happened with SAM-e. At fitst 400mg/day were beneficial. After several years of everything including l-carnitine, I was able to cut SAM-e back to 200mg/day. After everything is in place and working, rebalancing is frequently needed.
     
  9. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I tried l carnitine hoping for this very result but I was not able to tolerate it. I really wish I could. I'm finding anything with the potential to be stimulating overstimulates me and causes insomnia. A tiny dose of l carnitine still caused those effects. I hope someday I can tolerate it and get the same effects. I'm happy to hear some are finding something that helps them!
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean,

    Please tell me ypur symptoms that are aggravated by carnitine. What size dose did you try? Please describe the reaction in geenral. Do yopu have anxiety, panic, anger, sudden mood changes etc in general or made worse by carnitine? Having found this it might be indicating the path to healing for you. I'll explain more after you amswer my questions so I can be sure what I say applies to you.
     
  11. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    With Acetyl L Canitine I got Overstimulation, almost to the point of feeling manic to a degree, and severe insomnia and midsleep waking, then irritability and depressed mood for the next couple days after. I had taken a low dose maybe 1/8 or 1/16 of what was in my capsule. With L-Carnitine, I took only a few pieces of powder out of a capsule and had a similar reaction but milder, possibly due to taking much less. Thank you so much for considering my issue Fredd.

    I have had problems with anything with the potential to be stimulating it seems. Fish oil, alpha lipoic acid, benfotiamine. I'm working on my sleep cycle (was reversed day/night) and vitamin D is helping tremendously with that, but anytime I try a new supplement that can be stimulating I get terrible insomnia, often worse brain fog, and overstimulation. I also have a lot of trouble tolerating vitamin D, I think it may be causing other nutrients to be affected, so I'm trying to figure all that out so I can continue with D supplementation.
     
  12. cat65

    cat65

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    I wish I would have some kind of reaction. I have been taking methly b12 adb12 and methlyfolate (and other cofactors)for over a year. I could take 6 caps of Jarrow l-carnitine fumarate and not feel anything. Muscle weakness (like my arms feel to heavy to lift and not being able to make it up two flights of stairs without the feeling of blood draining out of my muscles) has always and still is one of my major symptoms. Nothing seems to help this.
     
  13. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Cat65, do you also have noticeable muscle loss along with the weakness? I have weakness that's sort of like what you describe but I also have severe muscle loss. I haven't been able to get any help or ideas yet from doctors on this and have found that nothing, even strength exercises, help my muscles come back.
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean,

    I had massive muscle loss. My top of the thigh muscle was as thick as my thumb 8 years ago before they regenerated. Now they are the thighs of a former pro skier. With the steps I took, they started growing after the last needed factor was in place. That was wild period. I took off 85 pounds of water in two chunks of about 45 pounds each, lost 40 pounds of fat and gained about 45 pounds in muscle. This all took about 3 years. When my muscles started growing back I used a lot more potassium than any other time. I had been using about 1600mg of potassium. When my muscles started growing that jumped to 3200+mg and, while still growing, have settled back and my potassium averages about 2700mg now. Like you NOTHING helped. Until I found all needed factors. Then the growth was noticable in 10 days and my arobic capacity doubled overnight. Want to try what worked for me and others?
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean,

    Thankyou. I have an adequate picture. I would be willing to bet that carefully applied the active b12 protocol will do what you need done. I would need you to go to the BASICS pinned at the top of the Methylation menu and use the list of symptoms marked with a red "yes" and others that used to be present a blue "not any more" and post it to my private conversations. The colors make it very easy to see. We would need to start with the basics and extend it from that in a specific order coming to a careful balance after each. It does look like you are having a succession of induced deficiencies and unvalances. It could take 3-4 weeks to come to a reasonable balance, not a complete one as tirtrations wiould still be continuing.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Cat,

    Obvoiously there are still missing factors. Would you like help seeing if we can figure out the kinks?
     
  17. cat65

    cat65

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    I thought I answered this last night but I see it did not post for some reason. Yes Ocean, I do have muscle loss. My family has good muscle tone, geneticaly. My legs and arms always looked like I worked out even though I did not. Now my legs (thighs) look like jello with know defination.
     
  18. cat65

    cat65

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    Yes, Freddd I would like help. I have been at this for 5 years with the methly b12. I tried alot of your suggestions form wrong diag. forum. At one time or another I have tried all the co-factors maybe the only one I have not tried is TMG? I have to go to work now. I will try and go through your list of symptoms as you suggested to Ocean, after I get home tonight.
    Thank you very much
     
  19. place

    place Be Strong!

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    I have to say that the muscle pain/loss experiance with the b12s is nothing i have had before. I have been an athlete for 20 years and this felt like my legs were being starved of oxgen. Suffocated. The final straw was when I tried to bring a 9 inch pan up to the stove, I got the burn in my deltoids. It was solved with the l carnitine within 2-4 days.

    As a side note, the last 2 years (prior to the b12s) I notice my muscles just did not work. they would give out. there was no pain or indication. my ablitiy to carry heavy stuff had significantly reduced over the years.
     
  20. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Fredd thank you. I will look for that page and then message you with the info.

    Place, I too was athletic. I hope I will be able to tolerate the l carnitine in the future and hopefully have a similar effect to what you had.

    Cat65, I'm just like you. I had strong toned muscles my whole life. Although I was athletic and active most of my life too, which I know you said you weren't. Now, "jello" is the perfect way to describe how my body is. It's bad in my thighs too but the worst is my calves and arms. Actually it's even like that on my hands and feet.
     

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