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In Brief: Muscles and the 'myalgia' in ME/CFS
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Muscle Spasms

Discussion in 'Skeleton, Skin, Muscles, Hair, Teeth, and Nails' started by talkingfox, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Hola.

    Wondering if anyone else has extreme muscle spasm issues...you know, the neural feeling ones that'll drop ya to your knees?

    I've been having hardcore issues for the last 10 months or so, mostly in my feet making it hard to walk and between my ribs, making breathing, well, interesting.

    I do stretch them out. (sometimes that hurts so bad it makes me yack, but better than being frozen up) , use magnesium internally and externally, heat, massage and use several topicals.

    Anyone know of anything else that may help? I'm between docs right now, so pharms. are not in the cards for awhile.
  2. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Ok...I just realized my Brain Frogs made me type Muscle Spams, rather than Spasms in the thread title and I don't know how to fix it. Sorry 'bout that.
  3. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi talkingfox,

    I have had good results with magnesium. My muscle spasms have pretty much gone away. But that might not be your problem? What type of magnesium do you take and what dosage? And do you take the magnesium with or without calcium?

    Hope it gets better!

    Take care,

    Maxine
  4. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    Fixed it for you, though it was tempting to leave up such a funny typo.
  5. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    Magnesium, magnesium, magnesium...it's all about magnesium.

    I have recommended Mg for muscle cramps to many many people and the results have been excellent!

    For me, my body doesn't hold Mg well and I have to take large dosages to keep muscle cramps at bay.

    I like Natural Calm, the raspberry-lemon flavor. It's a powder you put in hot water until it stops fizzing, then fill the remainder of the glass with cool water (or ice in the summer). Tastes great and I absorb it well.

    I also like Magnesium Malate capsules.
  6. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Kim/thanks

    Thanks Kim, but you are right - it was pretty funny the way it was.

    NOT that having muscle spasms are fun.

    :(

    Maxine
  7. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    Oh, one more thing. Muscle spasms respond better to ice than to heat.
  8. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Okies...my Magnesium intake is (in addition to what's in my multi) : Twice a day Cal/mag/ zinc 80 mg Mag + an extra 250 mg plain Magnesium That dosage was set when we increased until I got the intestinal issues that go along with more mag than the bod can handle, to phrase it delicately. I've had to be my own doctor for years and started that protocol a number of years ago for fibro pain and it helped some. I periodically try a higher dosage and always adjust to tolerance. I also do the Mag. salts bath thing when stuff is really bad. I'm not sure that Mag. deficiency is the issue.

    Tried the ice thing first, Kim. :) Actually made things worse.

    The stupid things are acting and feeling like the kind of spasms I got when I had a ruptured disc...same sort of crazy making neural pain, except in different areas.

    And Yeah...you could've left the typo...I actually thought is was pretty funny too.

    Made me think of a T-shirt I had years ago: I'm Pink, Therefore I'm Spam ;)
  9. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    One last question on Magnesium: When you say "plain Magnesium", what kind is it that you take? There are many ways that Magnesium is bound and lots of them have poor absorbability (by drawing H2O into the colon). Magnesium malate, aspartate, taurate, and gluconate are some of the ones that are better tolerated. For me, I need way more Mg to keep the spasms under control than what you are taking, ~ 800 mg a day.

    If, however, this is due to some kind of neuropathy, the B12 protocol might be worth trying.
  10. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    currently my magnesium intake totals to around 760 mg a day. I'm doing the cal/mags and the extra 250 (gluconate) twice a day plus the 100 mg in my multi. OH and malic acid to help w/ absorption. Started doing this 5+ years ago after reading the Stanford FM study.

    Sorry I'm being a bit garbled...foggy and in a fair bit of pain today. Bad combo for clarity. :ashamed:

    I'm taking a load extra b-12 and hitting the nutritional yeast ...I'd be interested in protocols for the B vits. I'm inclined to think this has a neurological starting point given the nature of the pain.

    I'm getting pretty desperate to find something that works. I'm going to have to start thinking about a wheelchair if I don't get the feet thing ironed out.
  11. George

    George Guest

    Yet more questions (rubbing hands and grinning eviliy)

    When you say feet, are your feet tender, painful to put pressure on???, The muscle twitches can you see the muscle jumping under the skin??? Is twitching painful as in sharp shooting, burning or itching???:yinyang:

    Love the new smiles Kim (you so rock!)
  12. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Talkingfox,

    Magnesium might not be an issue for you, but which ones you take do impact absorption. Also, if you have high levels of calcium in the body, it can block magnesium absorption, and high levels of calcium can cause muscles spasms in and of itself. It's about balance with minerals. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to test for magnesium levels as many docs use serum (blood) magnesium test which are pretty much useless. The Buccal Cell Smear Test is more accurate.

    You mentioned using some magnesium externally, can you tell us what that is? I was using Kirkman's cream with magnesium sulfate, but have found that magnesium oil works much better for me.

    Good Luck,

    Maxine
  13. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    talkingfox,

    I woke up today thinking about your feet. You're getting ample magnesium, and the pain responds to heat, rather than cold. Perhaps these are not muscle spasms at all? Especially if it feels similar to the kind of nerve pain you had from a herniated disc.

    There are (at least) 2 B12 protocols that members here are doing. One is Richvank's simplified protocol, and the other is Freddd's protocol. Some have reported great improvements with peripheral neurophathies.

    This is probably not relevant, but this article was in Science Daily today.

    Angina In The Legs? Time To Alert Patients And Physicians
  14. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    @ George Nope no twitching other than regular fasiculations, which I get a whole lot of. They don't hurt. I also get regular burning itchy stuff in bot feet and down both legs . Definitely neural. Hurts, but I can cope.

    When I get subsequent spasm it's an intense stabbing pain and the muscle affected goes totally rigid. And I totally agree with you...Kim does indeed rock!

    @ weldman I use the oil too. My NP at the time turned me on to it a few years ago. :cool:

    @ Kim Yup I'm sure that the whole thing is neural in origin. When I'd get the same stuff w/ my back, the ortho. said it was spasm caused by neural involvement pissing off the nerve even more. Sort of a vicious cycle. Thanks loads! Do you have info anywhere with specific details about these protocols? I'm nothing if not tenacious ;)

    Thanks so so much everyone for your input. It actually makes me feel better, in the heart area if not the extremities, to know that there are kind empathetic folks out there. Means lots.
  15. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    talking fox

    We all want each other to feel better! Good luck with what you try and keep us updated when you get a chance.

    Take care,

    Maxine
  16. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

  17. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Thankee kindly Kim. I'll be jumpin' on that like a late bus.
  18. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Early update

    Switched out my b complex to Jarrow sublingual Methyl b-12. I noticed a difference in the pain levels within 24 hours. Plus I'm no longer peeing in technicolor...:innocent1:

    Time will tell whether that was due to the B or just because this bad patch is winding down, but I'm encouraged. I was actually able to get out of the house (albeit on a very short bookstore trip) for the first time in 10 days. That pasted me, but it was worth it...AND nothing went into spasm as the result!

    Thanks for the heads up y'all!
  19. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    :D wooo-hoo-hoo-hoo!!! :D

    talkingfox, You've made my day with your post. I had been hoping and praying that you would get some relief with the B12s. The first step was confirmation that the B12s could do something. And they did!! Next step is to see if you can get those feet back into dancing shape. The cofactors that Freddd recommends may be just as important as the B12s themselves <---- I'm so giddy about your feet that I'm starting to talk Suessically.

    Please keep us posted and do not hesitate to ask Freddd for guidance on this. He's healed/is healing his peripheral neuropathies and would be able to guide you.

    How much Jarrow B12 did you take? Did you put in between your cheek and gums or under the tongue?

    Oh, this is such good news.
  20. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Under the tongue for an hour, 1000 mcg . twice a day. I didn't want to start with more than that until I figure out how my system is going to react. I figure I can bump it up gradually if needed.

    I looked at Fredd's protocol and I was pretty close to spot on already, barring the type of B-12. I loves my gym geek protein shakes and multis! Aminos R Us in theraputic amounts. I am, however going to be adding Sam-E to the fistful of stuff I take on his recommendation. I know the Malic acid I take hekps w/ uptake, but if we can bump it up another notch, so much the better.

    As an aside I've also switched my mag. to citrate...I seem to tolerate that better and can do 500 mg at a whack in the evenings. The neuro/spasm stuff always seems to be worse at night so I figured I'd nuke it from high orbit once at the right time rather than the smaller doses twice.

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