Phoenix Rising: The Gift That Keeps on Giving All Year Long
This holiday season Jody Smith turns her eyes to the people of Phoenix Rising and gives thanks for you all ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Muscle atrophy not related to disuse

Discussion in 'Skeleton, Skin, Muscles, Hair, Teeth, and Nails' started by viggster, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,201
    Likes:
    2,194
    Seattle
    Fluge, Mella & Co found elevated levels of 3-methylhistidine, at least in males, in their 2016 study. 3-methylhistidine is the marker for muscle tissue breakdown, a sign that one is using one's own muscles for "fuel" in the krebs cycle.

    And this 2015 study proposed 'that amino acids are being increasingly used to provide an adequate carbohydrate source for the citric acid cycle.'

    Elevated 3-methylhistidine was also found in this study from 2007.

    Sepsis (infections) increases 3-methylhistidine, as does a zinc deficiency. I believe elevated cortisol increases it as well, but can't find the study at the moment.

    Carnitine
    , taurine (in rats), zinc, and glutamine have been shown to lower or normalize it.

    Edit: BCAAs also lower 3-methylhistidine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
    merylg and Kati like this.
  2. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,466
    Likes:
    19,595
    It is so frustrating that we are in 2017 and we have yet to tease out clear and well defined subsets of this disease, let alone have definite biomarkers instead of a case definition based on reported symptoms.

    Clearly, there are those of us who lose weight and muscle mass with this illness. And there are those of us who have gained significant amount of weight with disease onset.

    Our own experts cannot even figure it out, because of the lack of consensus/ case definition issues, lack of funding for research and because the most severe patients are not even seen in the office.

    This disease is so lame. :ill:
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  3. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,542
    Likes:
    24,651
    USA
    How is methylhistadine different than methylhistamine?
     
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,821
    Stirred into water or milk, etc.
     
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,201
    Likes:
    2,194
    Seattle
    I'm not sure, but I don't think there's a connection.

    Methylhistamine is a metabolite of histamine, "which is produced by mast cells. Increased histamine production is seen in conditions associated with increased mast-cell activity, such as allergic reactions, but also in mast-cell proliferation disorders, in particular mastocytosis."

    Then there's both 1-methylhistidine which is marker for protein (usually meat) consumption (possibly a too high protein diet), and 3-methylhistidine, which is a marker as noted above, for the breakdown of one's own muscles.
     
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  6. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,542
    Likes:
    24,651
    USA
    Would you ever put it in a hot drink like decaf coffee or tea or is the consistency meant for a cold drink?

    Thanks and I was not sure if there was any connection (beyond them having a similar name).
     
  7. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,821
    Hrm, no idea :p
     
  8. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes:
    5,255
    Canada
    You could mix a small amount into coffee (although some of the whey might be damaged by the heat) but it's usually taken in larger quantities. Mine comes with a scoop that measures out 22 grams and looks roughly the size of 1/4 cup. The consistency is a fine powder, similar to powdered milk. I mix it with kefir and berries for a morning smoothie that I split into three small meals.
     
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  9. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

    Messages:
    238
    Likes:
    539
    USA
    It is unclear to me whether there are subsets of patients that are unable to stand or walk due to POTS or similar autonomic issue and others whose inability to walk is based upon muscle weakness (? metabolic issue).

    I know advanced heart failure patients that wear an external VAD (Ventricular Assist Device) that have much higher functional status.
     
    PatJ likes this.
  10. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,542
    Likes:
    24,651
    USA
    The issue that stopped me from walking prior to my current treatment was a combination of POTS, hypotension & OI, muscle weakness and breathing weakness. I do not know if any of it was of a metabolic cause vs. autoantibody mediated and not sure if I ever will.
     
    RYO, PatJ and dannybex like this.
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,201
    Likes:
    2,194
    Seattle
    I think it's clear just from years of reading patient's stories that there are many subsets, and many causes/triggers that end up affecting each of us in different ways.
     
    merylg, PatJ and Gingergrrl like this.
  12. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes:
    5,255
    Canada
    In my case I think It may be OI inducing muscle weakness from activity. I don't have POTS but I'm fairly sure that I have low blood volume, and definitely have low blood pressure and 'orthostatic narrowing of pulse pressure' (meaning my pulse pressure becomes narrower the longer I'm upright). If the low blood pressure prevents proper nutrient delivery to muscles, and prevents the clearing of exercise induced by-products (like lactic or carbonic acid) then the muscle weakness could be a result.

    Maybe short duration activity leads to byproducts that can be cleared in a reasonable time, but longer duration causes them to build up and overwhelm my body's ability to cope (like a garbage collector strike in a major city; once the strike is over it takes a long time to get rid of the accumulated trash.)

    I've also had periods where just holding my arm up causes muscle weakness and 'burn' in that arm; again I think this is from low blood pressure. I can watch my veins contract when my arm is held up, and watch them expand when my arm hangs loose at my side while upright. I think this is a sign that my blood vessels don't contract properly to maintain blood proper blood pressure.
     
    dannybex and Gingergrrl like this.
  13. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

    Messages:
    238
    Likes:
    539
    USA
    I have carefully logged my blood pressure and pulse over the last 6 months. I have not noticed significant variation. My tilt table test at NIH was normal. It would be nice if there was an easy way to measure pulmonary wedge pressure as in ICU sepsis patients. Transesophageal ultrasound has been used to provide indirect estimate.

    Does anyone know if pulmonary wedge pressure ever studied in ME/CFS patients?

    My guess is that pulmonary wedge pressure would be normal. But I am not sure why I feel better after receiving IV fluids during severe relapse. Placebo?
     
  14. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes:
    5,255
    Canada
    Thinking in terms of being ovewhelmed by exertion (mental or physical) byproducts, then maybe you feel better because the IV fluids quickly dilute those byproducts.

    Have you ever tested your blood pressure after having the IV fluids?
     
  15. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

    Messages:
    631
    Likes:
    747
    Vancouver, BC
    I have had to deal with a lot of muscle atrophy too. Often I'm too weak to clean my apartment even though I can work part time...

    I believe that it is ME interacting with 2 main things
    1) height - I'm very tall. Tall people are weaker relative to their own body mass. Ergonomics at work are also hell. I work different places so I can not control this
    2) INJURIES!!! this is a big one. It seems if I am working I can not recover from injuries. I am just too exhausted from work and adopt horrible posture and body mechanics... It seems the only time I can improve this is in the summer when I'm not working... But when I work it's downhill for the next 10 months until I get another 2 month vacation and can gradually work on strengthening and proper movement
     
  16. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

    Messages:
    238
    Likes:
    539
    USA
    I was recently contacted by NIH to participate in phase 2 of ME/CFS intramural study. It sounds like they are adding muscle biopsy. This is encouraging...
     
    Kati, Izola, Joh and 3 others like this.
  17. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

    Messages:
    238
    Likes:
    539
    USA
    My theory is that many us suffer from vestibular issues during relapses.
    IV fluids help perhaps because of its supportive effects similar to treating someone with labyrinthitis.

    I also find that small doses of ondansetron help with nausea, dizziness and stomach upset during severe relapse. (5-HT3 receptor antagonist)
     
    PatJ likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page