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MTHFR test and insurance coverage - what is your experience?

Messages
60
Location
Seattle
If diet didn't do a very good job of correcting for MTHFR deficiencies, these SNPs simply could not have proliferated as they have.

That's not necessarily true. There could be some other evolutionary advantage that we don't see, or some other role for those SNPs, that perhaps becomes apparent in very different living conditions.
What is evolutionarily relatively advantageous in one circumstance may be relatively disadvantageous in another.
For example, on a population basis, in areas where malaria is prevalent, the sickle cell gene (as in sickle cell anemia) provided an evolutionary advantage against malaria (see http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/biology/sickle_cell.html) However, if malaria is absent in the environment, the other problems associated with sickle cells are relatively more apparent because the benefit (the protective effect against malaria) is non-existent.
Another example is lactase persistence, the ability to breakdown lactose into adulthood. "Lactose tolerance is only advantageous in environments and cultures where humans have access to domesticated dairy animals." http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/070401_lactose (the information in the yellow on the right, about "selective sweep", is also very interesting). Good video here: https://www. youtube .com/watch?v=MA9boI1qTuk&feature=youtu.be (copy & paste, then remove spaces before & after "youtube")
 
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pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
The research disagrees ... there's been at least one sizable study (I think 2) regarding the effects of MTHFR alleles with regards to related birth defects, which also looked at supplement and diet. The increased risk disappeared in both cases.

Ummmm, birth defects from mthfr is a different subject.
I was referring to pregnancy and miscarriages related to mthfr which there have been studies showing a connection.
https://sites.google.com/site/misca...ophilia-and-miscarriage/mthfr-and-miscarriage


It's nice that he believes that, but has he or anyone else published regarding it?

I dunno if he has published, only he is supposed to be an expert on MTHFR and many follow his medical advice.

Those treatments may be helping for reasons other than supporting the methylation cycle.

Additionally, "MTHFR deficiency" is the norm in the general population. Those SNPs are very common, and for the 31 "control" 23andMe profiles which I have, the average person has an approximate reduction of MTHFR function of about -32%. Which, ironically, is slightly worse than is seen in the 31 ME patients I have full data for. Basically, this averages out to everyone being C677T +/- or A1298C +/+.

Only 4 people in each group have optimal MTHFR function. If diet didn't do a very good job of correcting for MTHFR deficiencies, these SNPs simply could not have proliferated as they have.

That is very true, I probably have other causes affecting my health including age related breakdowns in enzyme and mito processes other than mthfr, transcobalamin2 among them.
I look back on my families medical issues along with mine, they became worse after reaching middle age.
Of my fathers many sisters (7 or 8?) all but two suffered from dementia/alzheimers in their final years.
Research does show various correlations between mthfr and Alzheimers.

Your study group is inherently limited tho and not representative of mthfr mutations across the general population.

me in bold.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Sorry @pogoman - That isn't readable. You can put my text in quotes using the button to the left of the save/"Drafts" icon. It's also best not to hit enter after every sentence.
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
@Jonathan Edwards

I really agree with you that I wish more ME docs would publish on their research. Many of them have their own treatment plans which they tout as useful. They may be - or they may not be. If they are, one must wonder why they don't publish something. Some of them do - Dr. Nancy Klimas is well known for publishing a great deal on her research while she treats patients, and continuing to seek funding for some therapies she would like to try (e.g. anakinra - she hasn't gotten the funding yet to do a trial). I can think of one very well known ME specialist who has promoted a wide variety of therapies over the years, with accompanying theories as to causation, yet to my knowledge has never published anything. He charges his patients quite a bit, and he doesn't share knowledge with the medical community. I think some of his ideas are intriguing, but they should be scientifically validated.

At the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for doctors to do what they can to treat patients and to alleviate symptoms. One must be somewhat cautious when dealing with highly risky therapies of questionable benefit. However, I think there is sufficient justification right now for a doctor to treat a well-informed patient with rituximab based on the phase 2 double blind trials of the Norwegians. Sure, phase 3 evidence would be great to have, but in the meantime, patients are suffering, and doing nothing is not always the right choice. It's one thing to expect an ME specialist to treat patients and also put the data into a trial, but your average GP who is just trying to help his patients probably doesn't have enough patients, time, or specialized knowledge to do a trial in ME. You can argue that patients should then see a specialist in ME, and in theory, I agree - but practically, there are nowhere near enough ME specialists to treat the patients out there. Because the medical community has failed to really deal with this issue in a coordinated, effective way, compassionate doctors are left to their own to try to help their patients. It is an unenviable position for both doctor and patient, and one that can only really be solved by the medical community as a whole addressing the ME problem with resources proportional to its impact on patients.

Dr. Edwards, you are not part of the problem here - you have recognized a need to bring science and reason, as well as an open mind, to a difficult medical problem. In that sense, most of your peers are not so forward thinking.

I have, with the help of various physicians, the vast majority of whom have not been ME specialists, tried therapies that seemed at least plausible and where the risk did not seem excessive. Some have failed, but a few have been helpful. I would prefer to do it as part of a clinical trial, but given that my choice is often between doing nothing while waiting for a trial and doing something to try to help with symptoms or even get at the cause, I think you can see why I'm not willing to wait.

Obviously PCP's aren't going to all start trying rituximab on their patients, but I don't think it would unreasonable for a rheumatologist or even a hematologist with relevant experience to try it on a patient. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for PCP's to try drugs that may be effective, and to go only on the patient's subjective opinion of efficacy for now, provided the drug isn't overly risky.

I suspect that in your career as a rheumatologist, you had a few patients with very rare or unexplained illnesses that lacked known, effective therapies that you had to get creative with, and who did not number enough to be included in a trial. In these cases, one cannot just rely on evidence, but must use scientifically plausible, if unproven, treatments. Many docs will limit this to severe, life threatening illnesses where the risk of doing nothing is exceedingly high. I would argue that it's reasonable to apply a similar standard in treating patients who have unexplained illnesses with severe quality of life implications. Patients should be advised as to the risks, but ultimately if a patient wishes to take a more aggressive approach, a physician should respect this decision. It is, after all, the patient's life and health that is at risk.

That doesn't change the fact that ME specialists who continue to offer treatments to a wide array of patients should do so in the context of a clinical trial. I suspect many believe the treatments they offer are ineffective.

FDA approval shouldn't be the standard for insurance paying for treatments. They are too slow and bureaucratic an organization, and they do not seem to take ME seriously at all. I believe that a physician believing a treatment is medically justified and plausible is sufficient grounds for insurance to pay for a treatment. I'm sure some physicians would abuse this, but on the whole, I think that's a lot better than patients suffering because bureaucrats and pencil pushers get in between highly educated medical professionals and patients who need their help.

It's such a catch-22 right now for patients. We feel like we are in a no-win situation. Many, like me, never thought it possible they could end up in a situation where they were seriously ill and for decades the medical establishment, government, and insurance companies basically ignored them. That said, science has not failed us, but rather its practitioners. It unfortunately drives desperate patients to unscientific options, which I understand is exactly what you are trying to avoid. No one who is sick should be forced to fight the battle alone, with the medical profession having turned their collective backs on the patient - yet this is exactly what happens every day in the ME world. I don't think doctors understand how much patients are hurt by the lack of support and validation, the questioning of one's sanity and/or honesty, and the implication that having ME is a character flaw rather than an illness.

My younger sister has a very serious medical illness which is generally considered terminal - but one which is well understood and whose reality and severity is unquestioned. I don't envy her diagnosis. However, our experiences with the medical profession have been polar opposites. She has been treated by some of the world's finest physicians, using FDA approved drugs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in a major, world-renowned university medical center in the USA. She has great trust in her doctors. I live in a very different world. When I meet a new doctor, I must worry about how he/she will judge me - and in fact often do not disclose that I have ME, for fear that it will lead the doctor to not take me seriously or want to help me. That is a sad state of affairs.

Again, I am not venting at you. You just happen to be the one who is here and actually bothers to listen to this underserved group of patients.