1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Asklipia
    If I wasn't concerned, I wouldn't have posted my question. I don't know what to think. I'm generally distrustful about any company trying to make a profit (which is why I despise proprietary blends), but at the same time I don't want instantly believe unsubstantiated internet rumor. Maybe using the term "conspiracy theory" did make me seem biased, but I don't want propagate unproven information either. I tried to strike a balance. And yes, I realized the term "internet rumor" is also a loaded word.
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Are you sure you avoided glutamate entirely, Asklipia?

    I think it would be an interesting experiment for ME/CFS patients to avoid glutamate, and see if this helps with their symptoms. However, glutamate does not just come from the additive monosodium glutamate (MSG), but also from the natural free glutamate found in foods.

    Many foods naturally contain both free glutamate, and protein-bound glutamate.

    Protein-bound glutamate is unable to activate the glutamate receptors in the body, so this does not count for our purposes. However, the free glutamate naturally found in foods does activate glutamate receptors, and so this free glutamate is just as bad as MSG.

    Here is a list of foods showing their natural free glutamate content (in mg per 100 grams), which is just as bad as MSG:

    Marmite 1960
    Kelp 1608
    Vegemite 1431
    Roquefort cheese 1280
    Parmesan cheese 1200
    Soy sauce 1090
    Green tea 668
    Walnuts 658
    Cured ham 337
    Sardines 280
    Fresh tomato juice 260
    Grape juice 258
    Peas 200
    Mushrooms 180
    Broccoli 176
    Tomatoes 140
    Mushrooms 140
    Oysters 137
    Corn 130
    Potatoes 102
    Chicken 44
    Mackerel 36
    Beef 33
    Eggs 23
    Pork 23
    Human milk 22

    Sources for these figures:
    List of foods with free glutamate (see page 2)
    Glutamate concentration in foods
    If MSG is so bad for you, why doesn't everyone in Asia have a headache?

    Note that by comparison, the average American consumes less than 1 gram of glutamate per day from MSG.

    So this means that you would get more free glutamate from eating a single 100 gram portion of roquefort or parmesan cheese than you would from all the MSG in your entire day's food intake.

    And even if you avoid the foods naturally containing super high levels of free glutamate (foods like like roquefort, parmesan and walnuts), all the smaller amounts of free glutamate in the other foods you eat will add up over the course of the day, so that you may still get a substantial daily dose of natural free glutamate — a free glutamate dose probably higher than your daily dose of MSG derived glutamate.

    So if you are going to cut out MSG, you also need to cut out foods containing substantial levels of natural free glutamate.


    Notes:

    Some of the names MSG goes under: monopotassium glutamate, glutavene, glutacyl, glutamic acid, autolyzed yeast extract, calcium caseinate, sodium caseinate, E621 (E620-625 are all glutamates), Ajinomoto, Ac'cent, Gourmet Powder.

    The following may also contain MSG: natural beef or chicken flavouring, hydrolyzed milk or plant protein, textured protein, seasonings, soy sauce, bouillon, broth, spices.
     
    Allyson likes this.
  3. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Yes, after years of trying. Eventually we found out a method (see posts above in this thread) that allowed us to do that. The results were proportional to the avoidance.




    Yes, and I would add to that for us foods containing a lot of folates. It seems that ingestion of too many glutamates at one point resulted in a change in our bodies (epigenetic switch?) : we became more and more sensitive to foods containing a lot of folates (artichokes, beans, pomegranates and some others), which wasn't the case earlier.

    We stopped eating anything which our pendulums indicated contained harmful glutamates in 2005. Before that for 5 years we had been avoiding them going by labels only, and had not realized that a lot of the stuff we thought was free from them (for example plain rice) was being tampered with.
    The pendulum was an eye opener. We discovered glutamates were in our favourite uncooked unprocessed foods. From that point onwards things started to get very much better.

    The folate sensitivity is starting to fade now (husband ate four giant artichokes last week with no problem - I did my own experiment with a big bowl of fresh peas with no problem).

    Be well!
    Asklipia
     
  4. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Lotus97
    Thank you for providing an opportunity to remind others of this "unproven information".
    :)
     
  5. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    MSG is an excitotoxin. It's like spiking your blood with sugar all the time, but instead of sugar glutimate. The spiking is just as damaging to the body and the brain ..
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    MSG is a molecule comprising sodium and glutamate.

    It is the glutamate portion of the MSG molecule that can act as an excitotoxin, and this same glutamate is naturally found at high levels in certain foods such as Marmite, Vegemite, roquefort and parmesan cheese and soy sauce. So it would be just as important (if not more important) to avoid these foods, if you want to cut down on dietary glutamate.

    It is amazing that with all this exaggerated concern about MSG, nobody talks about the even greater dangers of these high glutamate foods, which may be even worse.


    If you look at Marco's article on the idea that high level of the neurotransmitter glutamate may be driving the neurological symptoms of ME/CFS, then this may provide some rationale for avoiding dietary glutamates. Having said that, glutamate does not readily pass through the blood-brain barrier, so the brain and central nervous system is protected from the dietary glutamates that circulate in the blood. Though some areas of the brain have an incomplete blood-brain barrier, and these areas may be more vulnerable to dietary glutamates, especially if, as Marco posits, that levels of the glutamate neurotransmitter are already high in the brain in ME/CFS.

    One way to test if dietary free glutamates / MSG were causing acute any problems in ME/CFS would be to buy some MSG powder seasoning, and taking say ½ a teaspoon (= 3 grams) of MSG in one go, noting any ill effects that arose over the subsequent hours. Around 86% of the MSG molecule is glutamate by weight.
     
  7. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    I never realised marmite was a 'natural' food ? lol They add it deliberately.
    Glutamate is found at fairly high levels in natural foods, tomatoes etc. But it's bound up with other proteins, so it breaks down slowly and doesn't spike your blood glutamate levels. In marrmite, the MSG is already in amino acid form.
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    No, unfortunately that's not the case. The figures I quoted above for the glutamate content of food refer to the free glutamate in that food, not to the glutamate the bound up with other proteins in the food.

    For example, you can see in this list that tomatoes have 140 mg of free glutamate, and 238 mg of protein-bound glutamate, per 100 gram portion. So that 140 mg of free glutamate in tomatoes is just as excitotoxic as if it were from MSG.

    Marmite derives from brewers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), and the high free glutamate content is naturally present.
     
  9. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Excitotoxicity from what I assume is free glutamate doesn't impact me too much during the daytime, fortunately I don't get headaches. I absolutely cannot consume it after 5pm or I won't be able to sleep. For dinner last night I had flatbread seasoned with a delicious spice blend that I'd never tried before - big mistake - it contained "autolyzed yeast". I was unable to fall sleep until 2am even though I was totally exhausted physically. My mind wouldn't stop racing - it makes me feel like I'm going insane.

    Surprised to see green tea so high on the list of free glutamate in foods.
     
  10. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    Tomatoes look fairly irrelevant if you compare them against marmite, which has 15x the free glutamate.
     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Since MSG is known to trigger migraines, I looked up the above foods high in free glutamate, and sure enough, they appear to be common triggers for migraines too. Apparently, migraines are most commonly triggered by glutamate, tyramine and phenylethylamine.
     
  12. BFG

    BFG

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    When I was young I could tolerate chinese food loaded with msg with no problem. Then in highschool and college eating anything with MSG always gave me migraines, but I could tolerate foods with glutamates. Now after coming down with CFS a year ago my MSG, Glutamate, Glutamic acid, Aspartame sesnitivity has gone through the roof.

    Every time I eat chicken (even organic) I will get nerve pain and muscle twitches. Every time I eat ground beef/bison (even grassfed) I will get really bad heart palpitations, chest pains and a migraine. I cannot eat soy sauce, natto, or fermented soy paste, kombu (seaweed)which I frequently used to eat with no problem. And I really like bone broths but cannot handle the free glutamates now.

    Does anyone know why people become more and more unable to handle glutamtes?

    I have an identical twin brother, no cfs, and and he does have a mild sensitivty to msg, but he can handle high glutamate foods.

    here are some interesting articles on MSG/glutamates, glutamic acid
    http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/free-glutamic-acid-msg-sources-dangers

    Here is a another website with possible explanations why some people become sensitve to MSG and I was surprised when they brought up GIlberts syndrome and increasing sensitivity, which I have. They also brought up autism, b12/b6 def, fibro, which is related to CFS.
    http://www.msgtruth.org/why.htm
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Nice song :

     
  14. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I like marmite and for some reason I don't get any untoward side-effects with it. I get massive side-effects which are quite nasty if I eat chinese food.

    There is 1960 mg of free glutamate in 100g of Marmite. That's a heck of a lot of marmite -- just less than a small jar. I would think a serving of Marmite would be about 2-3 g, so that would be about anywhere from 39 to 60 mg which is much less than in some other things.

    I actually did not know that MSG is a trigger for migraines. I get ocular migraines and I wonder if it's connected to my diet. Next time I get one I will review what I have eaten.
     
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    For some reason I do seem to have a worse time with "MSG" than "autolyzed yeast extract" and foods high in free glutamate. Maybe there's a difference in purity, or amount of free glutamic acid, or how it's absorbed, etc.
     
  16. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I was considering that the different forms play a role too.
     
  17. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    WHat are occularmigraines please Kina? i had several episodes of severe migraines when i was aobut 18 where the eye on the affected side would swell up - all the white part became red and swollen. Lasted about 2 weeks with the migriane - sever pain; then resolved spontaneously. I never found out what caused these. Still wondering.

    Thanks,


    Ally
     
  18. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I occasionally get ocular migraines too. I have paid attention as to whether diet is involved and for me it does not seem to be (though MSG will give me a "normal" migraine).

    I discovered by accident (in the "try everything" mode), that a dose of Rescue Remedy would stop an ocular migraine within a very few minutes. I now carry it around with me as they have come on occasionally while driving.

    Sushi
     
  19. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    My relief for ocular migraines is ibuprofen. I take one as soon as the symptoms appear. I turn the lights off and cut out any other lights, close my eyes and 'watch' the weird light show move across my visual field. It takes about ten minutes to stop. It kind of points to inflammation as ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory. Does 'Rescue Remedy' have anti-inflammatory properties? I would rather take something that doesn't wreck my stomach.

    I have had a few regular migraines too and they don't seem to be related to anything. When I eat Chinese food, I experience a heck of a lot of brain fog and a sensation that my brain is heavy and spongy and I feel a lot of pressure in my head. It's hard to explain. It also increases IBS symptoms radically. I try to avoid foods that cause symptoms.
     
  20. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Kina

    Rescue Remedy is a Bach Flower remedy, so herbal, and I don't recognize the ingredients but I'd guess it is anti-inflammatory as it (along with arnica--homeopathic) will stop traumatic pain from an injury in just a couple of minutes. It is taken sublingually and I've taken when I've slammed my hand in a door and other stupid things, and together, they are magic.

    But I just use Rescue Remedy when I get the first little weird light and don't even have to stop driving as it works so fast. Of course it may not work for everyone!

    Sushi
     

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