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MS is still being claimed as partially psychogenic!

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by alex3619, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Oh dear, psychogenic medicine is really about the gaps in knowledge. Its STILL being claimed that MS has psychogenic components.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...hen-the-mind-causes-real-pain/article9265237/


    (My bolding)

    I do note that "functional neurological disorders" is becoming a common buzzphrase used in the UK according to the reports I have been getting.

    Evidence for psychobabble is like the man on the stairs, who wasn't there:

    The other day upon the stair,
    I saw a man who wasn't there,
    He wasn't there again today,
    My gosh I wish he'd go away!

    This started as a post at: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...gue-syndrome-a-meme-18-june-2014.30944/page-8

    We need to understand what happened to psychogenic claims in MS, and are still happening, its the best example we have of what is going on in ME but with the perspective of maybe forty years advances in medical science over what ME has.
     
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  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    :lol::mad::vomit::cry::thumbdown::bang-head:
     
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  3. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    lilpink, Kati, Sean and 1 other person like this.
  4. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    We have no evidence that the symptoms are anything but exactly what they appear -- physical symptoms. We don't even have evidence of a psychological trigger that might be hypothesized to be the reason for these imaginary symptoms. Somehow these imaginary symptoms appeared out of nowhere for no apparent reason. But we know they're imaginary because....uh... we say so.

    The man on the stair who isn't there indeed. :rolleyes:

    Once again I ask -- who exactly is delusional here?
     
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  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    helps increase business for the psychobabblers.
     
  6. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    They like to murk things up and cause less clarity.
     
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  7. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    Now it's obvious that we are in a psychobubble.. beware!!
     
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  8. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Neurology journals are full of this trash. They decide that neurological disease x causes symptoms y and z. The accepted symptoms are taught in medical school textbooks and diagnostic guidelines. If they bother to keep up with the research literature, which most of them don't, they might also be aware that neurological disease is characterised by not just gross anatomical changes in the brain that we can see on our primitive imaging techniques but also cellular level metabolic/mitochondrial dysfunction which we don't understand very well but which could plausibly account for any neuropsychiatric presentation. But never mind that arcane stuff. That knowledge is compartmentalised and deemed too novel and exploratory to be clinically relevant.

    So if a patient exhibits additional symptoms in the clinic, something that falls outside of what we can see on your MRI, then this is a sign of somatisation, borderline personality disorder, stress, anxiety, unconscious psychosexual conflicts, trying bolster state benefits claims... <------ take your pick. They then write a bunch of articles, apparently without a hint of self-awareness or irony, about the high prevalence of "functional somatic syndromes" in neurological disorders even though our understanding of the workings of the central nervous system is on a par with how well we understood the cardiovascular system in 1600 AD.
     
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  9. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    I wonder if the MS society is aware of this, and whether they have a response?
     
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  10. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    They got it wrong:

    [Satire].MS is a psychogenic disease with an organic "neurological overlay". [Satire].
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
    alex3619 and Valentijn like this.
  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    You need to be clear when you are being sarcastic, I learned that the hard way. Many will understand, but some will take it the wrong way. I use labels like [Sarcasm] or [Satire]. Someone in deep brain fog might be able to read a statement, but not pick up on the subtleties.
     
  12. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    from the article:


    They arent't contradicting themselves here?

    There are no organic explanations for the symptoms yet scans show abnormalities in brain activity?

    They admit that brain scans show very abnormal activity and they claim there is no evidence of medical illness.

    So epilepsy isn't an organic disease?

    At least they admit that they have no reliable test to distinguish between "psychogenic" and "organic" disease.

    It gets even better:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia

    Even organic dystonia has often no identifiable pathology and often causes psychological symptoms. Why isn't this one psychogenic then?

    How can they differentiate between the two? Well most likely they just roll the dice and then call it "science"

    You get the feeling "psychogenic" stands for: "the patient's disease's differs from what i learned in medical school so i will look for character flaws and weaknesses and if i find some it's psychological"
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
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  13. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Wait a minute -- first we assume (because we have no objective evidence to prove this) that the condition is psychogenic, then we claim that any physical abnormalities must be caused by the the patient's thoughts and emotions because the condition is psychogenic. o_O

    Let's see if we can work with the evidence without using circular reasoning. Hypothesis: the patients have abnormal brain activity because there's a physical condition causing abnormal brain activity. Hey, look at that! No need to assume a magical ability on the part of the patient to unconsciously affect physical phenomena they can't even detect without expensive medical equipment.

    Logic, people! Use logic!
     
  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    To difficult for them.
     
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  15. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    It's 1890 again and we have re-discovered freudian "Hysteria". Medicine has evolved backwards.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-17/freud-s-hysteria-theory-backed-by-patients-brain-scans.html

    At least they admit that there wasn't any evidence to support this nonsense but only because they believe they have found some evidence.

    Doctors need to stop this ASAP. Freud died long time ago. He was a coke addict who liked to tell stories and exploited patients for profit.

    Conversion disorder is clearly a case of "Freud per Proxy."
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    This is what happened in ME and CFS as well. Hormone issues, like cortisol? Psychogenic. Any other issues? Psychogenic. Once they go down this path they never let up, like a Terminator.

    Circular reasoning and the psychogenic fallacy are two of their favourites.

    In case anyone has not read of the psychogenic fallacy, here is a link to my blog on it:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/the-witch-the-python-the-siren-and-the-bunny.1149/
     
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  17. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    I cannot find the reference right now, but during the DSM-5 debate I remember reading that neurological patients have a 3 fold or so increased risk of reporting "functional" symptoms which are supposedly unrelated to their disease. Perhaps they need to start reconsidering or redefining possible symptoms for, or influences from, some diseases?

    Fibromyalgia occurs in a relatively high proportion of patients with autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and a few others. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence and these patients have an unrelated "functional" illness? Or is it more likely that FM is a disease which overlaps in pathophysiology and/or symptoms of chronic pain in other diseases?

    Emotional and behavioural disturbances are also more common in neurological diseases, since emotion and behaviour are regulated by the brain afterall. Acting as if they are just unrelated hysterical overlays is a sloppy oversight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
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  18. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    http://multiplesclerosis.net/living-with-ms/portable-history-ms/

     
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  19. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    So it's obvious, in one case it's organic, in the other one, it's just that their experiment of symptoms has a neurological correlate.
     
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  20. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    When faced with symptoms and diseases that cannot be fully explained and successfully treated doctors have two options:

    1. admit the limits of their knowledge and expertise, and the limits of current medical science/knowledge in general (this option is good for doc's karma but bad for their ego and feelings of supremacy and power)

    2. claim that the illness is imaginary, and that patient's the symptoms caused by their thoughts and emotions (bad for doc's karma, but excellent for their ego and maintaining sense of supremacy)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014

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