Morning fatigue - low potassium connection

[alex3619]

A lot of us are potassium deficient. This has been known for a long time: http://sacfs.asn.au/medical/adelaide_uni_research_3.htm

Extra fatigue after eating can have many causes. One I would like to point out is orthostatic intolerance. It can get worse because lots of blood suddenly goes to the gut to digest food instead of the brain to keep you alert.

Personally I also have a growing list of food intolerances that can cause fatigue.

Our hypothalamus is often not regulating circadian function right, so the usual pattern is low cortisol on waking, and high cortisol when trying to sleep, the opposite of what we want.

These things are multifactorial.

 

[Gondwanaland]

A lot of us are also magnesium deficient. I found out that there is an idividual threshold below which supplementation is pretty useless.
Depletion of magnesium: There is a long history showing depletion of magnesium in CFS and benefits of supplementation, both orally and by injection (See review in Ref. 39). Magnesium depletion may be responsible for a variety of symptoms that are found in CFS (128), including mitochondrial dysfunction, muscle twitching, muscle pain, sleep problems and cardiac arrhythmia. In connection with sleep problems, Durlach et al. have found that magnesium depletion is associated with abnormalities in the level of melatonin and dysregulation of biorhythms (129). Manuel y Keenoy et al. (54) found that the subset of CFS patients that was resistant to repletion of magnesium in their clinical study also showed glutathione depletion. It has also been found that glutathione depletion causes magnesium depletion in red blood cells (130). According to the GD-MCB Hypothesis, the depletion of intracellular magnesium in CFS is another result of depletion of reduced glutathione.

These things are multifactorial.

I agree, and would like to add that IME electrolyte balancing has been really helpful.

 

[Mary]

A lot of us are also magnesium deficient. I found out that there is an idividual threshold below which supplementation is pretty useless.

On the Exatest which measures intracellular magnesium, and is the test recommended by Rich Van K., my mag levels were good. However, on hair analysis, they are very low, and have been low ever since I started crashing in 1998. They were normal prior to that time.

I have read of people who had good results with magnesium injections and I know Sarah Myhill recommends them. My doctor wouldn't do them but I am beginning to think I should just find another doctor who will and give them a try.

 

[Gondwanaland]

magnesium injections

Don't you tolerate oral supplementation?

 

[Mary]

Don't you tolerate oral supplementation?

Yes, I tolerate it very well - I take about 600 mg. a day. And my levels on hair analysis don't go up, but intracellular levels appear to be fine. My doctor didn't know what the deal was. That's why I thought maybe injections might do something different than taking it orally, and perhaps that's why Dr. Myhill recommends the injections. It's possible that although my RBC mag is good, I'm not able to use it for some reason. I just don't know what's going on.

And I have read about a couple of people who did really well with the injections.

You said there is a threshold below which supplementation is useless - did you mean if you don't take quite enough magnesium, it won't do any good?

 

[Gondwanaland]

RBC mag is good

How much?
My levels were:
Serum Mg 2.2 (1.6 - 2.3 mg/dL)
RBC Mg 5 (4.3 - 5.7 mg/dL) <- Dr. Carolyn Dean says below 6 is too low
Urine Mg 4.7 (7.3 - 12.2 mg/dL)
Hair 46 (35 - 120) <- and this was before some abx rounds which lowered my levels drastically (see urine result)

if you don't take quite enough magnesium, it won't do any good?

I had read that to be effective, supplementation should be to bowel tolerance. When I found out my bowel tolerance I saw significant improvement.

 

[Mary]

@Gondwanaland - I don't know where my Exatest results are right now, I just remember they were surprisingly well within the normal range, actually a little higher than normal mid-range.

On hair analysis, it was 1.9 - the normal range was 2.0 - 11.

Well, I don't think I've gone up to bowel tolerance so can give that a shot.

One other thing I am going to try after Christmas is increasing thiamine. Magnesium is a cofactor for thiamine - it would appear that magnesium is important for thiamine utilization but maybe it goes both ways. I react pretty strongly to thiamine - it seems to increase energy although at one time it took away my appetite, which was not good - but then I was doing okay on a lower dose and then something was making detox and I just cut out everything I was doing differently until after Christmas when I can play around some more with doses.

http://www.stewartnutrition.co.uk/nutritional_emergencies/acute_thiamine_deficiency.html

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Mary pay attention to magnesium toxicity. If you get increased urination, low BP, sleepiness, night sweats, stop it. Antidote can be calcium and/or sodium. If you are taking B1 with it you'll probably be metabolizing most of it, which is good. B1+mag+potassium are a good combo.

Right now I am taking no magnesium, after having replenished it in Aug-Sep and tapered down in Sep-Oct, when I started getting night sweats (low calcium). I don't supplement calcium b/c I took blood thinners for some time. A little vit A helped me with the night sweats and fixed my sleep pattern (mag helped a lot with this issue). Tomorrow I am getting my vit K2-mk4. Let's see how it goes, perhaps I will be able to add some calcium with it.

Each person has a complicated story... So listen to the signs your body gives to you

 

[Mary]

@Mary pay attention to magnesium toxicity. If you get increased urination, low BP, sleepiness, night sweats, stop it. Antidote can be calcium and/or sodium. If you are taking B1 with it you'll probably be metabolizing most of it, which is good. B1+mag+potassium are a good combo.

Right now I am taking no magnesium, after having replenished it in Aug-Sep and tapered down in Sep-Oct, when I started getting night sweats (low calcium). I don't supplement calcium b/c I took blood thinners for some time. A little vit A helped me with the night sweats and fixed my sleep pattern (mag helped a lot with this issue). Tomorrow I am getting my vit K2-mk4. Let's see how it goes, perhaps I will be able to add some calcium with it.

Each person has a complicated story... So listen to the signs your body gives to you

Thanks for the tips - good luck with everything!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks for the tips

Wait, there is more!
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#toxicology

http://www.side-effects-site.com/magnesium-side-effects.html

http://drcarolyndean.com/2012/10/when-magnesium-makes-me-worse/

In my case I found that the organic forms of magnesium (citratre, glycinate, aspartate) just added to ammonia build up or to increased acidity, and sulfate interacted negatively with ammonia, so watch out for the other side of the molecule as well

Good luck to you too and please keep us posted

 

[Mary]

A lot of us are potassium deficient. This has been known for a long time: http://sacfs.asn.au/medical/adelaide_uni_research_3.htm

Extra fatigue after eating can have many causes. One I would like to point out is orthostatic intolerance. It can get worse because lots of blood suddenly goes to the gut to digest food instead of the brain to keep you alert.

Personally I also have a growing list of food intolerances that can cause fatigue.

Our hypothalamus is often not regulating circadian function right, so the usual pattern is low cortisol on waking, and high cortisol when trying to sleep, the opposite of what we want.

These things are multifactorial.

I just now looked at the article you linked - very interesting! I've been crashing for 16 years but only relatively recently have discovered my low potassium issues. My levels were always on the low side of the normal range on blood work so no doctor ever said a word to me about it. I'm taking a ton of potassum now (low-sodium V8 and potassium gluconate caps), and it helps. It doesn't stop the crashing, but it definitely helps with energy in-between.

I didn't know low potassium was associated with CFS. I do have crashing only, and no myalgia, so fit into the group described in the article which was most likely to have low potassium. I wish there was a simple way to measure potassium levels like Ph strips or something! I go by symptoms now.

 

[Mary]

Wait, there is more!
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#toxicology

http://www.side-effects-site.com/magnesium-side-effects.html

http://drcarolyndean.com/2012/10/when-magnesium-makes-me-worse/

In my case I found that the organic forms of magnesium (citratre, glycinate, aspartate) just added to ammonia build up or to increased acidity, and sulfate interacted negatively with ammonia, so watch out for the other side of the molecule as well

Good luck to you too and please keep us posted

Of course there's more! We are going to be so smart when we finally regain our health! (I'm already helping relatives with various things, just hope I never hurt anyone)

Thank you for all the additional info. I don't think I have an issue with ammonia build-up - my urea is normal on blood work. But I've just started using Ph strips (so far am alkaline) and am very curious to see what my Ph will be like when I'm crashed. The theory I'm currently working with is that the crash is caused by lactic acid build-up due to glycolysis metabolism, and hence should be acidic on the Ph test - will see.

I might look into the magnesium chloride - I've never tried that form.

Best wishes for a good holiday

 

[physicsstudent13]

I had low maybe dangerously low potassium after a lot of bleeding at the hospital and they gave me about 6 potassium tablets. If I'm taking B complex injections and 5000mcg of sublingual b12 then how much potassium should I take. I know that high potassium can also cause death

 

[Mary]

I had low maybe dangerously low potassium after a lot of bleeding at the hospital and they gave me about 6 potassium tablets. If I'm taking B complex injections and 5000mcg of sublingual b12 then how much potassium should I take. I know that high potassium can also cause death

I don't know how much potassium you should take. I do know that it is almost impossible to get too much potassium when taken orally, unless your kidneys don't work right. And I think we are all much more likely to suffer from low potassium than high. See this study (from Alex above): http://sacfs.asn.au/medical/adelaide_uni_research_3.htm

When I first started taking potassium supplements after my potassium levels tanked after starting Freddd's B12 protocol, I was very nervous, had read all the warnings. And then I read more, which I urge you to do. The RDA is somewhere around 4,000 mg. (which might be low I'm beginning to think). One potassium capsule or tablet has 99 mg. - which means it's 1/40 of the RDA, not very much at all. I don't know what they gave you in the hospital, whether it was a prescription or just generic potassium at 99 mg. a tablet.

What I'm doing is taking potassium in various forms, based on my symptoms. When my muscles get achey and I'm tired (if I'm not crashed or crashing) then it's generally low potassium. I don't get heart palpitations with it though many people do. I've been drinking low -sodium V8 which has 900 mg. potassium per 8 oz. glass, plus taking additional potassium gluconate if I seem to need it. Regular V8 has about 500 mg. potassium per glass.

Right now I'm averaging 2 to 3 glasses low-sodium V8 a day, plus an additional 1000 mg. or so of potasssium gluconate. I initially tried potassium citrate but it irritated my bladder.

So you could try drinking V8 and see how you do, see if it makes you feel better. Drink a couple of glasses if need be. There are lots of other foods high in potassium like sweet potatoes, bananas, orange juice, plain old tomato juice, there's lots - but a lot of them are high in sugar and I'd have to eat too much to get the potassium I need.

 

[physicsstudent13]

by the way what does the l carnitine fumarate do, does that help somehow?
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB12/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Adverse_effects
The correction of megaloblastic anemia with vitamin B12 can result in fatal hypokalemia and gout in susceptible individuals, and it can obscure folate deficiency in megaloblastic anemia.

I can't believe these evil doctors only giving me 3 IV vitamin treatments after I was vomiting and lost so much blood after surgery. And for months after that I was nauseous and vomiting and right after surgery and all that blood loss I had hemolysis on blood tests and was bedridden. I was extremely weak and exhausted. And at the hospital they didn't give me a blood transfusion and Iv vitamins. And I probably had a B12 absorption problem from a theleminitic infection and PPI pantropazole.
but cyanocobalamin may cause blindness because of cyanide poisoning and the other types may be safer and high B12 seems to be associated with higher cancer risk, growth of cancerous cells dividing

Yes it might be safer to take the V8 juice-it seems that B12 high dose might create a potassium deficiency. Is it sufficient to eat 3 bananas a day. I bought the potassium gluconate and yes it does say that the actually amount is 99mg for a 550mg tablet.

 

[Mary]

by the way what does the l carnitine fumarate do, does that help somehow?
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB12/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Adverse_effects
The correction of megaloblastic anemia with vitamin B12 can result in fatal hypokalemia and gout in susceptible individuals, and it can obscure folate deficiency in megaloblastic anemia.

I can't believe these evil doctors only giving me 3 IV vitamin treatments after I was vomiting and lost so much blood after surgery. And for months after that I was nauseous and vomiting and right after surgery and all that blood loss I had hemolysis on blood tests and was bedridden. I was extremely weak and exhausted. And at the hospital they didn't give me a blood transfusion and Iv vitamins. And I probably had a B12 absorption problem from a theleminitic infection and PPI pantropazole.

Yes it might be safer to take the V8 juice-it seems that B12 high dose might create a potassium deficiency. Is it sufficient to eat 3 bananas a day. I bought the potassium gluconate and yes it does say that the actually amount is 99mg for a 550mg tablet.

I strongly recommend you read Freddd's posts re the B12 protocol, which includes carnitine fumarate. He explains things very well. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/

And you're absolutely right about correcting megaloblastic anemia with B12 - and it's also true for folate - causing hypokalemia. That happened to me. That's the first time I became aware of my low potassium issues, after I started taking methylfolate. And Freddd talks a lot about this potassium issue. I had already been taking a lot of B12 for a long time and didn't feel any better. But when I started the methylfolate, boom - my energy increased markedly within a couple of days, and a couple of days after that I was hit by severe fatigue and lethargy. And realized that my potassium levels must have tanked. I titrated up to 1000 mg. of potassium over a couple of days - not all at once - and sure enough, my energy came back.

Now it seems that any time I do anything that increases my energy (e.g., am taking more B6 in the form of P-5-P), it increases my need for potassium.

It is important to increase levels gradually. I would not recommend taking 1000 mg. in supplement form all at once.

I don't know if it's sufficient to eat 3 bananas a day. You may need more, I don't know. We're all different. Try it, see if you feel better. Maybe get some low-sodium V8 or even regular V8, which has less potassium. It's a low calories, low sugar way to increase potassium which is important for me. If I could be very active I'd eat more bananas!

It just seems that most doctors don't know that much about nutrition and how vitamin and mineral deficiencies affect the body. Most just seem to hand out drugs to manage symptoms, not get at causes. That sounds like a rough experience in the hospital!

Anyways, try increasing your potassium through food and see how you feel. If you feel no different with 3 bananas, try adding some V8. It won't hurt you.

 

[physicsstudent13]

I can't afford the V8 juice I'm on food stamps, I've been trying the potassium and I think it lowered my heart rate when I had dangerous tachycardia all day of 125 and my heart was just racing uncontrollably. I also showed right branch bundle blockage which is an electrical conduction damage in the heart

 

[Valentijn]

I can't afford the V8 juice I'm on food stamps, I've been trying the potassium and I think it lowered my heart rate when I had dangerous tachycardia all day of 125 and my heart was just racing uncontrollably.

Potatoes and chicken are a couple of the best natural sources of potassium, and a lot more affordable. White beans, winter squash, and lentils are also good sources.

 

[Mary]

I can't afford the V8 juice I'm on food stamps, I've been trying the potassium and I think it lowered my heart rate when I had dangerous tachycardia all day of 125 and my heart was just racing uncontrollably. I also showed right branch bundle blockage which is an electrical conduction damage in the heart

I'm really glad to hear you had good results with the potassium supplement. Yes, low potassium can cause tachycardia, all sorts of problems.

And Valentijn's right - there are a lot of cheaper good food sources than V8, although I think if someone is very low in potassium, they probably will need to take a potassium supplement till their levels get to where they should be. And it's very difficult for me to do with food alone. So I'm using both V8 plus potassium gluconate caps.

 

[physicsstudent13]

I don't know I feel like this is dangerous to supplement or not supplement without bloodwork but obviously tachycardia of 125 is not normal and uncomfortable and also probably a sign of heart damage.
you know for years I had angina this strangulation feeling in my chest like the blood flow was constricted even when I was young for a few minutes, I'm not sure what that is