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More from Science Medica Centre on SMILE

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I also touched on my worries regarding the black box issue (though not in those words) in my post here ...

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-can-anyone-tune-in.54509/page-10#post-910926
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-can-anyone-tune-in.54509/page-10#post-910926
... though not explicitly from your extremely valid perspective here. It's akin to measuring the temperature of something, and the very act of dipping the thermometer in causing the temperature to drop by several degrees. If people then reviewing the experiment do not understand this effect, or even worse, reviewing an experiement where such detail is hidden from them, and the reviewers have no way of asking if such issues exist. In truth any review worth its salt should deem it null and void if vital information is withheld from the reviewers.

Yes I agree. How about its like counting the number of dead cats in boxes! Although I think it can be more subtle in terms. You may be measuring temperature as a proxy for something else for example how well a buildings heating system is working (I'm cold today). The measured temperature may be fine but that doesn't mean the heating is working just that it is summer - hence the proxy measurement is bad. When the temperature falls and the heating doesn't come on is the point you know it doesn't work. Maybe the intervention is to add an additional heater next to the thermometer so that it still doesn't measure when the heating works. So in this case it is not that the measurement equipment measures the wrong thing rather than it interacts with what is being measured.

I think the thing is so many reviewers rely on the competence of those writing the paper so they don't look to deep. Its hard when reviewing is considered as time away from real work.
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
I am glad SMC received criticism from their scientific friends for the LP coverage. Once again we are presented by SMC as anti science, this blog is derogatory about pwME- they'd expect us to criticise [any] research, select headlines to call out and along with climate skeptics stand against science.
A blog claiming scientific balance and objectivity is laughable in the context of their behaviour to us and the scary voice comment left was excellent
 

Demepivo

Dolores Abernathy
Messages
411
& in case it's not been posted before...James Coyne on Fiona Fox & SMILE

https://www.coyneoftherealm.com/blo...y-to-coverage-of-esther-crawley-s-smile-trial

Thoseof us who are accustomed to the Science Media Centre UK (SMC) highly slanted coverage of select topics can detect a familiar defensive, yet self-congratulatory tone to an editorial put out by the SMC in reaction to its broad coverage of Esther Crawley’s SMILE trial of the quack treatment, Phil Parker’s Lightning Process. Once again, critics, both patients and professionals, of ineffectual treatments being offered for chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis are lumped with climate change deniers. Ho-hum, this comparison is getting so clichéd.

Perhaps even better, the SMC editorial’s concessions of poor coverage of the SMILE trial drew sharp amplifications from commentators that SMC had botched the job.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774

So much to read right now.

Does anyone else find the formatting on Coyne's blogs a bit of a pain to read?

Quotes spreading out from the centre & pictures indenting line seem odd choices. It's especially annoying if a blg is mainly made up of quotes.

WHAT?!: This has been bugging me for months, and literally moments after typing this I reloaded his blog, and the formatting problems disappeared. Maybe it was my browser? It never made sense that he'd format his blogs in the way that I was seeing them.
 
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wastwater

Senior Member
Messages
1,271
Location
uk
Would things be better if there was no ME and no psychological stuff get rid of both extremes then start again
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
I wrote to David Colquhoun to see if he was interested in getting involved in pointing out the nonsense of PACE maybe a year ago.
I also tried to get his attention on twitter about a year ago, but he wouldn't bite.

In fact he came out with a ridiculous excuse for testing video games an ME patients - something along the lines of -might as well try it because nobody has a clue about ME.

James Coyne set him straight but it shows you how even quackbusters can fail to see the obvious if they choose not to.

Anyway it looks like David is more vocal on twitter now but still reluctant to blog about it.


 

Keela Too

Sally Burch
Messages
900
Location
N.Ireland
I also tried to get his attention on twitter about a year ago, but he wouldn't bite.

In fact he came out with a ridiculous excuse for testing video games an ME patients - something along the lines of -might as well try it because nobody has a clue about ME.

James Coyne set him straight but it shows you how even quackbusters can fail to see the obvious if they choose not to.

Anyway it looks like David is more vocal on twitter now but still reluctant to blog about it.




This is interesting. I don't think I've ever had any interaction with David Colquhoun yet apparently he has blocked from seeing his tweets!!

??
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever had any interaction with David Colquhoun yet apparently he has blocked from seeing his tweets!!

??

David has a track record for debunking homeopathy and such. He has probably been deluged with insults in the past from homeopaths. He may have been deluged with insults from people supporting xmrv or something like that for all I know and he may have added 2 and 2 to make 5. But why he should block people from reading his tweets I am not sure - or how he would know who to block.
 

Hutan

Senior Member
Messages
1,099
Location
New Zealand
From Scary Vocal Critic's excellent comment:
The protocol that: “The primary outcome measure for the interventions will be school attendance/home tuition at 6 months.” It is worth noting that the new SMILE paper reported that there was no significant difference between groups for what was the trial’s primary outcome. There was a significant difference at 12 months, but by this point data on school attendance was missing for one third of the participants of the LP arm.


I had not fully appreciated that the intention of the trial was to count both school attendance and home tuition.

Having supported my son through periods of both, I know that school attendance requires quite a different (and much better) level of health. Home tuition might consist of an hour of contact time with a teacher or parent, and then a few hours lying in bed working through questions. Or something quite different. But almost certainly not 6 hours a day sitting up being taught by a visiting teacher. Home tuition is very hard to define exactly or to quantify in terms of 'days of education'.

It seems possible, if school and home tuition are counted as the same thing, that a child might be attending school three days a week at the start of the trial and have moved to a relaxed 'home tuition' four days a week by the end of the trial and therefore count as improved on the measure of school attendance. They may even feel better now that they aren't using so much energy getting to school and sitting in class. But they still have ME.

I would like to know if 'home tuition' was counted as 'school attendance' in the SMILE paper and, if so, how it was defined. It would also be good to know what proportion of the 'school attendance' was actually 'home tuition', at the beginning and end of the trial.

Given that it seems that Crawley moved from a planned 'school attendance as reported by the school' to 'school attendance as reported by the parents/child', the inclusion of 'home tuition' as 'school attendance' muddies the water considerably. There is a lot more leeway for bias in how home tuition is quantified in self-reporting.

Also, the impact of 'home tuition' on the carer is much different to 'reliable school attendance'. Where home tuition is occurring, a parent is almost certainly at home, supporting the child. The impact on the cost of the disease to the family and society is much greater than if the child is able to reliably go to school. If home tuition continued to be counted as equivalent to school attendance, I wonder how that was handled in the cost benefit analysis.

Actually even 'school attendance that doesn't include home tuition' is quite a nuanced thing when it comes to cost benefit analyses of a treatment. If a child can reliably attend school three days a week, on the same days each week, then the carer can potentially work. But ME typically isn't like that. What is possible one week is not possible the next. This makes it very difficult for the carer to have a job that requires any sort of regularity in attendance or even productivity.

Even if the child was attending school for three days a week at the beginning of the trial and managed to attend 4 days a week for the particular two weeks the parents chose to report on at the end of the trial, that should not automatically be assumed to result in the carer being able to work and earn money for an extra day a week. It is quite possible that the child will need to be in bed all of the next week.

Clearly, for a sound cost benefit analysis of LP, we need to know if there was a stable improvement in the capacity of the child to attend school. That is going to require actual school records for at least a period of months, not two weeks. Preferably, due to the variability of school holidays and the cumulative effect of over-exertion, school attendance needs to be tracked for the year following treatment.
 
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me/cfs 27931

Guest
Messages
1,294
“It’s safer to insult the Prophet Mohammed than to contradict the armed wing of the ME brigade”
I would really like to see her carry out an experiment to prove this, perhaps in Saudi Arabia.
Esther seems to be the golden girl when it comes to research funding maybe we should ask her to write the grant proposal. I wonder what acronym she would come up with for this one.
How about "Armed Wing vs. Saudi Harm and Injury Trial" or AWSHIT?

Edit: The trial could also be conducted in Syria.
 
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Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
& in case it's not been posted before...James Coyne on Fiona Fox & SMILE

https://www.coyneoftherealm.com/blo...y-to-coverage-of-esther-crawley-s-smile-trial
James Coyne said:
Once again, critics, both patients and professionals, of ineffectual treatments being offered for chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis are lumped with climate change deniers. Ho-hum, this comparison is getting so clichéd.
It makes you wonder really. What sort of discussions go on behind closed doors amongst these folks? It should be along the lines of "Well, our first duty, one that we are sworn to, is to do whatever is best for our patients. It is now clear that we were wrong, and so like good honourable scientists, even though it is very hard for us to do, we must put our hands up and try to set the record straight. That's what good science and the Hippocratic Oath is all about". But somehow it doesn't seem to work like that. More akin to some perverse marketing meeting "OK, these vexatious patients and scientists are trying to blow our house down again, so what's our next psychological strategy we can employ. We've tried the one where we compare ourselves to World War 1 heroes, and the other lot to the forces of evil opposing us. What's next? Ah, how about this. Everyone knows (well, excluding a certain blond haired leader of the free world) that climate change is for real and has good science supporting it, so lets convince everyone that we are the same as them, the good guys. Then we just ensure that the ME patients and their vexatious scientists are mentioned in the same breath as the anti climate change brigade, the bad guys. Well known trick. ... What do you mean it won't work this time, it's always worked for us up till now. ... Well can you think of anything better!"
 
Messages
87
From Scary Vocal Critic's excellent comment:



I had not fully appreciated that the intention of the trial was to count both school attendance and home tuition.

Having supported my son through periods of both, I know that school attendance requires quite a different (and much better) level of health. Home tuition might consist of an hour of contact time with a teacher or parent, and then a few hours lying in bed working through questions. Or something quite different. But almost certainly not 6 hours a day sitting up being taught by a visiting teacher. Home tuition is very hard to define exactly or to quantify in terms of 'days of education'.

It seems possible, if school and home tuition are counted as the same thing, that a child might be attending school three days a week at the start of the trial and have moved to a relaxed 'home tuition' four days a week by the end of the trial and therefore count as improved on the measure of school attendance. They may even feel better now that they aren't using so much energy getting to school and sitting in class. But they still have ME.

I would like to know if 'home tuition' was counted as 'school attendance' in the SMILE paper and, if so, how it was defined. It would also be good to know what proportion of the 'school attendance' was actually 'home tuition', at the beginning and end of the trial.

Given that it seems that Crawley moved from a planned 'school attendance as reported by the school' to 'school attendance as reported by the parents/child', the inclusion of 'home tuition' as 'school attendance' muddies the water considerably. There is a lot more leeway for bias in how home tuition is quantified in self-reporting.

Also, the impact of 'home tuition' on the carer is much different to 'reliable school attendance'. Where home tuition is occurring, a parent is almost certainly at home, supporting the child. The impact on the cost of the disease to the family and society is much greater than if the child is able to reliably go to school. If home tuition continued to be counted as equivalent to school attendance, I wonder how that was handled in the cost benefit analysis.



I have been pondering on this part of the results as well. It would be interesting to know more about how the days were calculated. Are these full days or part time timetables. For children with home tuition most local authorities only fund 5 hours per week. Usually 1 hour per day or 3 sessions of 1.40 per week. So if timetabled to do 1 hour each day how would this be reported if achieved.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
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Looks like he may be swallowing the "vexatious patient" narrative to me. Pointing out the bad science regarding the BPS approach to M.E. should be a no-brainer, most of the work's already been done for him.

David has a track record for debunking homeopathy and such.

People making a name for themselves as debunkers by going for soft targets like homeopathy seem to be two-a-penny these days. If he just goes for easy targets, can't see beyond the vexatious patient myth and doesn't want to grow some I find his tweets difficult to get excited about to be honest.