Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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MMS is it worth the risk?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Shannon, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    Sobering warnings @Groggy Doggy

    I had a practitioner suggest this in an emena. Immeadiately stopped seeing that practioner

    Still I'm curious if anyone has else has experienced benefit. Even if this treatment is too risky, perhaps others experiences can help us gain some understanding of etiology
     
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  2. Groggy Doggy

    Groggy Doggy Senior Member

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

    https://www.fda.gov/iceci/criminalinvestigations/ucm448541.htm


    WASHINGTON – A federal jury in the Eastern District of Washington returned a guilty verdict yesterday against a Spokane, Washington, man for selling industrial bleach as a miracle cure for numerous diseases and illnesses, including cancer, AIDS, malaria, hepatitis, lyme disease, asthma and the common cold, the Department of Justice announced.


    Louis Daniel Smith, 45, was convicted following a seven-day trial of conspiracy, smuggling, selling misbranded drugs and defrauding the United States. Evidence at trial showed that Smith operated a business called “Project GreenLife” (PGL) from 2007 to 2011.PGL sold a product called “Miracle Mineral Supplement,” or MMS, over the Internet.MMS is a mixture of sodium chlorite and water.Sodium chlorite is an industrial chemical used as a pesticide and for hydraulic fracking and wastewater treatment.Sodium chlorite cannot be sold for human consumption and suppliers of the chemical include a warning sheet stating that it can cause potentially fatal side effects if swallowed.


    “This verdict demonstrates that the Department of Justice will prosecute those who sell dangerous chemicals as miracle cures to sick people and their desperate loved ones,” said Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Benjamin C. Mizer of the Justice Department’s Civil Division.“Consumers have the right to expect that the medicines that they purchase are safe and effective.”Mizer thanked the jury for its service and its careful consideration of the evidence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  3. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

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    AUS
    I tried it 10 years ago and it made me violently sick. Just the thought of it makes me feel sick. :vomit::vomit::vomit:

    The things we try when desperate and no help from anyone. :aghhh::aghhh::aghhh:
     
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  4. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    Ugh what happened?
     
  5. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

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    The worst vomiting and diarrhea in my life. I spent the day laying on the bathroom floor in between using the toilet bowl. Absolutely horrible!!! :aghhh::aghhh::aghhh: And no improvement in my health!!!:aghhh::aghhh::aghhh:
     
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  6. invisiblejungle

    invisiblejungle Senior Member

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    Yup, same thing happened to me!
     
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  7. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    For those wanting input from CFS patients who have used MMS successfully, I used MMS daily for about two years, this was in the 2010-2011 timeframe. My regular amount was 1-2 drops most days. I never had any problems as long as I was careful about the amount I took (the dose). I tried to increase dose and got up to about 8-9 drops daily, but had increases in symptoms (fatigue, brain fog, etc), that became intolerable. But if I lowered the dose back down, the negative symptoms went away, and positive symptoms returned. In my experience, safe use of MMS is all about getting the right dose for your personal health situation. I also used CDS, which is the chlorine dioxide gas in water, that is easier on the stomach (not much taste), and learned how to make that myself by bubbling the gas from MMS through water and using test strips to measure the concentration (important to get that right). Also worth notice, I took other supplements an hour or two after the MMS/CDS, including daily antioxidants (usually Vitamin C, sometimes others), which probably helped counter the oxidizing effect of MMS/CDS.

    Some people believe the symptom increase from using too high of a dose is a 'herx' or die-off type of reaction. I don't know, maybe. Anyway, at lower doses (1-2 drops daily of MMS in water), I had little or no reaction, felt better, slept better (without sleeping pills, the only time I have managed that long-term in over 20 years with CFS), and my immune system seemed more functional. Taking the MMS or CDS did seem to reduce the duration and intensity of viral type illnesses when I got sick. I felt that the chlorine dioxide was assisting my immune system, although again, no way to verify that.

    I stopped using MMS because of all the controversy that arose at the time, and also because it seemed to have reached its limit in improving my CFS symptoms. The major improvement I experienced was better sleep and shorter viral illnesses. I probably had less brain fog, I was able to use the computer more during those years. But there was no significant improvement in my fatigue levels, PEM or OI that I recall, maybe a tiny gain, but I still very much was disabled by CFS. Anyway, after two years, taking it or not did not seem to matter much from day to day. Since then, I have used it rarely, but now and then I take a drop when I am sick and nothing else is working, and it often helps.

    A word of warning, if you try MMS, I would always start with the lowest dose, and learn what is a safe dose for you. I am meticulous about dose, have test strips and know how concentrated it is, and I researched what was a safe dose. At the time I believe I was staying BELOW the FDA guidelines for daily intake of chlorine dioxide. Yes, there are FDA guidelines, although that was not mentioned in the legal action against Daniel Smith. I don't know if those guidelines have changed, or if my calculations were right, in retrospect I should have had a chemist check my numbers.

    The general public is exposed to chlorine dioxide regularly, in water treatment and meat sanitation, for example, and the FDA knows that, and knows what is a safe dose. This controversy seems to be more about the strangeness of Jim Humble, problems with wild claims being made about MMS, a few cases where people made illegal medical claims about MMS they were selling, and also about risk to people who do not perform due diligence to know the chemistry and know and use safe levels only. Those are all real issues, but they do not address the science very well, I am not convinced that MMS/CDS is as harmful as the naysayers believe, due to my experience. But each person is unique, and I would not suggest anyone use my experience as a baseline. Taking MMS/CDS is experimental, and I don't think it is for everyone. But there are people like me who are careful and take things slow, and when nothing else has helped, might find this story interesting.....so FWIW, if you have questions, feel free to message me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
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  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Higher MMS maintenance doses of 6 drops daily are regularly used by some people, so your use dose of 1 or 2 drops daily is relatively low.



    Drinking water may not be a good point of comparison, as the following explains:

    Chlorine dioxide as a drinking water treatment is used at concentrations of up to 0.8 ppm (= 0.8 mg of chlorine dioxide per liter of water). Ref: 1

    Now each drop of Miracle Mineral Supplement (MMS) contains roughly 10 mg of sodium chlorite, which generates around 8 mg of chlorine dioxide when the citric acid activator is added to it (ref: 1), so if you are using two drops of MMS (= 16 mg of chlorine dioxide) in a 200 mg glass of water, that would equate to a concentration of 80 mg chlorine dioxide per liter of water = 80 ppm.

    Note that 1 mg per liter = 1 ppm.

    So your 200 mg glass of water contains around 100 times the concentration of chlorine dioxide that you would get from drinking water disinfected with 0.8 ppm chlorine dioxide.



    One possible point of comparison is chlorine dioxide mouthwashes like ProFresh which contains 40 ppm of chlorine dioxide. Although note that a mouthwash would normally only be swished around your mouth for a minute or two, before being spat out. So here you have a 40 ppm chlorine dioxide solution in contact with your oral mucous membranes for a minute or so.

    By comparison, if you drink a glass of 80 ppm chlorine dioxide solution, that liquid will be in contact with your stomach mucous membranes for around an hour (since it takes 75 to 120 minutes for a large glass of water in the stomach to be absorbed into the bloodstream 1). So that's a longer time in contact with the mucous membranes, which might conceivably be damaging. Once in the bloodstream, the chlorine dioxide solution will become more diluted in the many liters of fluids of the body (the body contains a total of around 50 liters of water, so your 80 ppm concentration will be diluted down to around 0.3 ppm once in the bloodstream and body fluids).

    (Note that although ProFresh genuinely contain chlorine dioxide, most mouthwashes advertised as containing chlorine dioxide do not contain it; they instead contain "stabilized chlorine dioxide", which is in fact sodium chlorite, a similar but slightly weaker oxidant than chlorine dioxide).



    A chlorine dioxide safety study on humans administered 500 ml of water daily containing a concentration of 5 mg chlorine dioxide per liter (= 5 ppm) for twelve consecutive weeks (so that's the equivalent of about a quarter of a drop of MMS daily). No detrimental physiological effects were observed at this dose level and for this duration of 12 weeks. But again, if there were some carcinogenic effects, these might only appear after longer term administration, and might only appear decades later.

    How likely is it that chlorine dioxide is carcinogenic? Well if you look on the CDC website here, they basically say there is not enough data to classify whether it can cause cancer or not.

    But in a study giving household bleach (sodium hypochlorite) to rats in their drinking water at concentrations of up to 0.2% (= 2000 ppm) for 2 years, no carcinogenic effects were observed. (2000 ppm in rats is the equivalent of around 320 ppm in humans). Note that household bleach is a stronger oxidant than chlorine dioxide.

    And in another study, sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) was administered for two years to rats and mice at 1000 ppm in their drinking water. (1000 ppm in rats is the equivalent of around 160 ppm in humans). No carcinogenic effects were observed.

    The same study administered for 1.6 years sodium chlorite to rats at 600 ppm in their drinking water. (600 ppm in rats is the equivalent of around 100 ppm in humans). Again no carcinogenic effects were observed. Sodium chlorite is the MMS ingredient (one of the two bottles in an MMS kit contains 28% sodium chlorite, the other the citric acid activator, which reacts with the sodium chlorite to form chlorine dioxide).

    It is worth noting that those with glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency may be more sensitive to chlorine dioxide or chlorite, because of a reduced ability to maintain glutathione levels. In such individuals, chlorine dioxide or chlorite may lead to destruction of red blood cells, and hemolytic anemia. Ref: 1



    Another point of comparison is the pharmaceutical drug tetrachlorodecaoxide, an immunomodulatory, macrophage-activating drug which contains chlorite (chlorite is the ionized form of chlorine dioxide). Chlorite is a very similar but slightly weaker oxidant than chlorine dioxide.

    Tetrachlorodecaoxide is medically administered via the intravenous drug WF10, which is just a 10% solution of tetrachlorodecaoxide. 1 ml of WF10 solution contains 4.25 mg of chlorite. Ref: 1

    WF10 can perhaps be compared to MMS, because when chlorine dioxide enters the body, it is quickly converted to chlorite (this CDC webpage says: "Both chlorine dioxide and chlorite act quickly when they enter the body. Chlorine dioxide quickly changes to chlorite ions, which are broken down further into chloride ions"). So although activated MMS is chlorine dioxide dissolved in water, it quickly turns into the chlorite in the body.

    In fact, given that MMS comes in two bottles, one containing 28% sodium chlorite and the other containing the activator (usually 10% citric acid) that turns the sodium chlorite into chlorine dioxide, it might be safer to forget the activator, and just take the sodium chlorite on its own, because chlorite is a slightly weaker oxidant, and so possibly safer. And chlorine dioxide appears to covert into chlorite in the body anyway. So why no just start with chlorite?



    In a clinical trial for chronic allergic rhinitis, 0.5 ml of WF10 per kg body weight was intravenously administered to the patients for 5 days in a row. For an 80 kg person, this works out to an intravenous dose of 170 mg of chlorite coming from the WF10. 170 mg of chlorite would be roughly equivalent to 21 drops of MMS.

    So presumably a daily 170 mg dose of chlorite (equivalent to 21 drops of MMS) slowly administered by IV is considered safe, at least for short term administration of 5 days.

    However, I am not aware of WF10 being used on a longer term basis; it only seems to be used in short treatment courses.

    So that makes it difficult to compare MMS to WF10 on safety grounds, since MMS is often taken on a long term basis for months or years. For example, if there were some carcinogenic effects from MMS and WF10, those effects would normally be proportional to the length of usage and exposure, as with all carcinogens (eg, smoking cigarettes for one month is a much lower cancer risk than smoking for decades).



    WF10 is also experimentally used to treat radiation proctitis and cystitis,1 diabetic foot ulcers,1 and WF10 is being investigated for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.1 These treatments are also only short courses of WF10, not long term use.

    The only country where WF10 is approved is Thailand, where under the brand name Immunokine, WF10 is used for the treatment of post-radiation-therapy syndromes and adjunctive therapy of diabetic foot ulcers.1



    The mechanism of action of WF10 is detailed in this study:
    So WF10 has various immunomodulatory properties, and thus any benefits that ME/CFS or Lyme patients experience from MMS might be down to these effects of chlorite from WF10 on the immune system, rather than any anti-microbial effects.

    I am assuming that the chlorite solution in the MMS kit might have the same immunomodulatory properties as WF10, although in fact WF10 is slightly different to chlorite. If you look at the diagram here of the tetrachlorodecaoxide molecule found in WF10, you see that the tetrachlorodecaoxide comprises four chlorite molecules (ClO2-); but I believe that tetrachlorodecaoxide decomposes into chlorite once in the body.



    A patent details a stabilized chlorite solution for the purpose of inhibiting the presentation of antigens by antigen presenting cells. The patent document explains how chlorite can treat auto-immune diseases.
    Here are the details of how this anti-autoimmunity treatment is administered:
    So the patent indicates that chlorite is best administered for 5 days, then followed by a rest for 16 days.

    The recommended dosing in the patent is a daily intravenous dose of:
    A solution of 60 mMol of chlorite per liter = 4 grams chlorite per liter

    So for an 80 kg human, that is an intravenous dose of 0.5 x 80 = 40 ml of this solution, which is a dose of 160 mg of chlorite. That is the equivalent of 20 drops of MMS.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  9. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Syracuse, Utah, USA
    Thanks Hip, this might explain some of my experience, but yikes, 6 drops would be high, way too high for my CFS responses to handle for more than a day or two. I can understand some of the more sensitive people with CFS becoming ill if they try that high of a dose. I have a very strong stomach, and barely tolerated the higher doses (6-9 drops) when I tried that once. Definitely my experience (and also my daughter who has CFS and has used MMS), says CFS patients would probably need very low doses of MMS/CDS.

    I will take some time to read through and study the information you included, this is very helpful. The autoimmune angle is particularly interesting, if that is the reason I slept better on the low dose MMS, I think that would be worth further study (maybe by researchers). I've never tried just taking a drop of the chlorite solution, that sounds like something I could also experiment with easily at low dose. Would be interesting if that helps the immune function.
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    After reading about WF10 and its immunomodulatory effects, I decided to do a few experiments with Miracle Mineral Supplement (MMS), to see if it would help my ME/CFS.

    Because WF10 is based on chlorite rather than chlorine dioxide (chlorite is just the ionized version of chlorine dioxide), I decided to start my experiments with chlorite, which is found in the MMS bottle containing 28% sodium chlorite.

    So I just used drops directly from the MMS sodium chlorite bottle, using a dose of 2 drops daily. I did not add any drops from the citric acid activator bottle, as this converts the sodium chlorite into chlorine dioxide, and I wanted to use chlorite.

    Also, because I was concerned about the delicate mucous membranes of the stomach, instead of drinking these 2 drops in a glass of water, I mixed the 2 drops into around 30 ml of water, and applied them transdermally to the skin of my body from head to toe. I am assuming that the body skin is more robust than the stomach mucous membranes.

    (If you apply MMS transdermally this way, I suggest doing it in the bathroom in case there are any splashes; when I applied this to my skin in my bedroom, there must have been some splashes onto my clothes and bedsheets, because the next day I noticed some bleached spots on my clothes and bedsheets. Also, it may be an idea to wear some old clothes for a few hours after transdermal application, in case the MMS on your skin bleaches the clothes you are wearing).



    The effects I found from 2 drops of transdermal MMS sodium chlorite were similar to you: better sleep (feeling more rested on awaking), and perhaps a clearer mind and more energy. I generally had the sense that MMS moved me a little further away from ME/CFS, and slightly closer to normality.

    However, these effects were not always consistent. Like you, I found less is more with chlorite, and going much higher than 2 drops daily made me feel worse.

    I also tried regular MMS drops transdermally (using MMS sodium chlorite plus the citric acid activator drops to create chlorine dioxide), with similar results on my ME/CFS symptoms.

    The interesting thing is that these beneficial effects were pretty immediate: for example, I might transdermally administer 2 drops of MMS just before bed, and the next morning, I would wake up having slept a bit better, and already feeling the beneficial effects.

    So that suggests that the benefits of MMS for my ME/CFS arise from its immunomodulatory actions (which I think will be the same as the immunomodulatory actions of the drug WF10), rather than from any anti-microbial effects of MMS (as we can assume that the anti-microbial effects will take many days or weeks to work, in line with how long it takes antibiotics to get results).



    The immunomodulatory effects of the chlorite-based drug WF10 (10% solution of tetrachlorodecaoxide) made by Oxo Chemie, and a similar chlorite-based drug called NP001 from Neuraltus Pharmaceuticals, include the following:
    • WF10 (Immunokine) has modulatory effects on both the innate and adaptive immune system. 1
    • WF10 stimulates innate immune functions, while inhibiting adaptive immune functions. 1
    • WF10 down-regulates antigen presentation, which may be important in the management of chronic inflammatory disease. 1
    • WF10 stimulates natural killer cell cytotoxicity against malignant cells, which enhances immunity against tumors. 1
    • WF10 inhibits serial killing by cytotoxic T-cells. 1
    • WF10 causes "profound changes in macrophage function and activation of gene expression, and appears to downregulate inappropriate immunological activation." 1
    • In healing wounds, topical Oxovasin (a diluted form of WF10) stimulates wound macrophages. 1
    • NP001 "converts pro-inflammatory (activated) macrophages, a type of white blood cell, to their anti-inflammatory state." 1
    • NP001 mechanism of action: "Within monocytes/macrophages, chlorite is converted into taurine chloramine that downregulates nuclear factor κB (NF-κB) expression and inhibits production of proinflammatory cytokine IL-1β." 1
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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