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Mixing B12 types and brands, ratios

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    At long last I have some approximate answers about the effects of ratios of different brands and forms of b12. This is a question that has been up for a long time. It may explain why CyCbl and HyCbl appear able to block MeCbl and AdoCbl. As I have suspected for some years AdoCbl also can block MeCbl.

    Through the years various people have indicated a need for different proportions of AdoCbl to MeCbl. I had started out with AdoCbl once a week and up to daily at every dose in a mix. I have found that if the amount of the lesser quantity falls below 20% or so it appears to have no effect. So at 50-50 both have some effect for me but not optimal. The same happens with a 5 star MeCbl combined with a less effective brand. When the 5 star MeCbl gets down to 20% or so of total all it's specific benefit goes away and startup can happen all over again.

    So CyCbl and HyCbl can block MeCbl and/or AdoCbl when either of those falls below 20%. AdoCbl can block MeCbl at 20%. MeCbl can block AdoCbl at 20%. but then behaves like straight MeCbl with some limited conversion to AdoCbl. Three star MeCbl can block 5 star MeCbl at the same 20% or so.

    So for me now, I am back to a single dose of AdoCbl a week, just as I had accidently found 10 years ago. I take a single dose of 25-50mg aver several hours in place of one of my MeCbl injections. I'm still trialing the optimum amount. The point is for it to be fully effective it has to be the more than 50% type of b12 in circulation for several hours. Too much AdoCbl for too long and I go into partial methylation block or worse.

    However, it takes trials for an individual to determine what is optimum ratios for themselves. Based on very limited experience I would be inclined to say take the doses of different kinds of B12 at different times per day so that each can be distributed best to the tissues.

    For me, that appears to be substituting one 25-50mg sublingual dose over 3-4 hours of AdoCbl for one 10mg MeCbl injection each week.

    BE IN GOOD HEALTH
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
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  2. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    Lebron returns to Cleveland the week Freddd returns to" METHYLATION WORLD" . Are the two event connected in some way?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
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  3. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    Thank God you added that final ,fifth paragragh. I had no idea what the first four said! :)
     
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  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I'm originally from Cleveland too. I moved away in 1973 but have been back to visit.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Lot's of people have asked me what the "ideal" ratio between AdoCbl and MeCbl is and I could only tell them that different people have different results. Now I can say "It is individual, within certain limits. That blocking can occur with MeCbl, whether made in the body from other forms or from supplements explains a lot of puzzling research results through the years. It also explains the necessity of Transcobalamin III (holotranscobalamin III when cobalamin attached) to mop up and deliver to the liver for excretion all non active forms of cobalamin. The study in 1959 that actually identified the REAL B12s through x-ray crystallography determines that AdoCbl and MeCbl made UP OVER 98% of all cobalamins in liver extract instead of that mistake that named the ineffective and even dangerous CyCbl as "B12" in 1948 and received the Nobel Prize for it.

    So, inactive cobalamins can block MeCbl if it is too low a percentage of total cobalamins causing partial methylation block or even methyltrap. People taking CyCbl and/or HyCbl still get hundreds of MeCbl and AdoCbl deficiency symptoms up to and including Subacute Combined Degeneration without hypothesizing the necessity of Cobalamin A, B, C ,D etc type genetic polymorphisms. Now it can be modeled effectiverly via pharmacokinetic methods and make sense with one more factor added, which will be my next post on how folate effectiveness status affects serum half life of cobalamins.
     
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  6. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Freddd, good to have you back! Really interesting stuff about cyanocobalamin and the two studies.

    Funny you come back and immediately mention adb12 because it's been on my mind lately. However, I've gotten a boost lately out of adding MORE of it per day rather than cutting back to once per week.

    I went down to about a quarter cap of Dibencoplex (~2500mg) per day for a long time. Sometimes I would even forget it for a few days at a time, and wasn't too worried since it gets stored in the mitochondria. But on a whim I boosted it in the last couple weeks (a whole capsule or 10,000mg/day, actually) and have been feeling somewhat better than I was. Maybe a lot of extra stress uses up adb12 more quickly than normal...?

    Thing are still better than they were before I started all these supps but still three steps forward and two steps back. I fervently hope to find a more even keel in the near future. Lots of stress aside from my diet and supplement regimen doesn't help, I guess. I am dealing with stress more effectively than I used to, and that's in no small part due to the boost of these supplements and your protocol. I keep reminding myself things are better overall, but I had hoped to be so much farther along energically and psychologically at this point in my life.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Whodathunkit,

    I'm taking 50mg a week generally, but as a single long dose. I find I need to get to that higher level to get the diffusion into the CNS. 10mg a day for me, doesn't penetrate the CNS adequately. My daughter needed a dose a day AdoCbl, with a higher dose being more effective. So this one is very individual in how it is dosed. I also find a daily dosing more effective if it is the entire dose one time a day rather than mixed at the same time with MeCbl. I find that works better alone also. Each way of taking it can produce different effects. The question is "Which is better for me over time?" Changing the balance of AdoCbl/MeCbl affects mood, personality and energy.

    It is a difficult climb out of the hole. When I started healing 11 years ago I had no idea that it could possibly end up as successful as it has been. For me it is learning to manage the metabolic and nutritional quirkiness of my body. First there are the hit'em over the head symptoms. The last 5 years it has been much more subtle, learning what gets in the way of the healing the rest of the way. When I don't get enough of xxxx then that specific deficiency or insufficiency increases symptoms. Learning that many things are subtle, not hard core deficiencies, but rather just not optimum, was important. It's like learning that folate insufficiency happens in about 6 levels in the body and some can be insufficient at the same time as other layers are fully sufficient. That is confusing for many that one can have both characteristics at the same time; paradoxical. Keeping things going smoothly and finding additional things that can provide incremental improvement is what I have been trying to do for 11 years. Mostly it is a long term following of clues. Each time something is added other things need to be re-evaluated be because they all affect each other.
     
  8. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Helena, MT USA
    This is when we take them around the same time, right?

    I just experimented with this unintentionally. I was taking the transdermal B12 oils from Australia, and I trialed the Ad/MeB12 oil in December, which has a 3:1 ratio of adeno- to methyl-B12. Very gradually (a month) my brain went offline (fog, groggy, and finally depressed) and my energy went downhill.

    I kept thinking it was ammonia going out of control, because it would happen so noticeably every time I ate a meal. There are folks who swear by this particular oil (@garyfritz is one), but I didn't get back to "normal" (my current normal) until I switched over to the straight MeB12 oil.

    So was the AdB12 blocking MeB12, even though MeB12 was 25% of the mix? Beats me.

    I just did another experiment yesterday, trying @Freddd's idea of taking AdB12 all by itself. It was the biggest dose I've yet taken (3000 mcg of Seeking Health sublingual AdB12), because -- I reasoned -- I hadn't taken any for 12 days.

    Within an hour my brain was offline, in thick fog, and like Dorothy in the poppy field, I went to sleep. Two different kinds of carnitine (ALCAR and LCF) had not made the slightest difference. However, applying the MeB12 oil helped yesterday. I'm still recovering today. It's nice to have my brain up and running again.

    What do you suppose is my problem with AdB12? I was taking it sublingually in Oct.-Nov. with no serious problems (except that "ammonia" brain/gut): 1000 mcg MeB12 with 1500 mcg AdB12. I was up to 3 times a day.

    Edited to correct the percentage. And this also concerns @Gyre from the transdermal oils thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015

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