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mito/muscle symptoms

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by Sherlock, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    If a person (especially a PWC) has mitochondrial dysfunction, how would that variously affect:
    • sprinting as fast as possible (power)
    • running jogging (endurance)
    • lifting a heavy weight (strength)

    Which would suffer most? What signs would there be? Thanks.
  2. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    As I understand it, we have significantly less aerobic ability but normal anaerobic ability. Athletic people who have expanded their anaerobic capability can potentially have less (though still significant) physical impairment than other PWMEs.

    That would fit with the mitochondria providing the aerobic energy while other chemical reactions in some other place take care of the anaerobic energy needs. [I'm really outside my range of knowledge here, so I could be talking a lot of BS]

    So, from your list, it's my understanding that endurance that would be the most problematic if we had mitochondrial dysfunction. It is the most aerobic-energy dominant of the three choices. Sprinting uses a lot of aerobic, too, but has a greater percentage of anaerobic than jogging, I believe.

    This is why the ME/CFS experts who recommend any exercise recommend very short exercise periods (1-3 mins) and strength exercises, not aerobic ones. Anaerobic energy systems dominate the very beginning of exercise (the first minute or two), but aerobic systems take over as exercise continues.

    Anyone feel free to correct me if I've completely missed the boat. :D
    Sherlock likes this.
  3. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Thanks, SOC. Refining my thinking after reading your reply, I'll add one more:

    • walking at a speed that is just under the anaerobic threshhold
    You can probably see what I'm getting at: separating out oxygen handling ability, so that fast walking or walking in hills would tax energy generating ability without being impaired by poor oxygen handling.

    Let me put it more plainly :) I can do all of the above (sprint, lift, walk for hours), except for jogging, which makes me so out of breath that my lungs are bursting and I'm going very slow. Does that show there is probably no mito dysfunction?
  4. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    My anaerobic threshold is low, although not at low as some PWME. My biggest problem, though, is that I go from sitting to above my AT with very little effort -- like walking 25ft at a normal-to-brisk pace. So I go from the low level anaerobic energy metabolism to the high level anaerobic metabolism in a matter of a couple of minutes. It's like there's very little (extra) functioning aerobic capacity. That would make sense if I had a mitochondrial disorder of some kind.

    I'd guess that what you're seeing suggests some mito impairment. Here's my thinking -- you are producing energy via aerobic metabolism at a rate that allows it to be replenished as long as you keep to walking. If you start jogging, you begin using energy faster than your aerobic system can produce it and your body thinks it's not getting enough oxygen because that's the only reason it "knows" for you not to be producing enough energy (it's not programmed to adjust for not enough mitochondria).

    That's just my thinking -- I could be totally wrong. :D

    Have you had your AT tested -- the whole VO2max thing? If not, and you are calculating your AT based on a formula, you could be working at well above your AT when you think you're not. PWME often (mostly?) have a low AT.

    For comparison purposes -- I can't walk much distance at all and stay below my AT. If I stroll, I can get 50-100ft before I hit my AT. If I try to walk and stay below my AT, I have to keep getting slower and slower until even standing still will have me over my AT. Heck, I can get to my AT just standing upright for 30 mins. :( I suspect a pretty significant mito dysfunction in my case. Could be wrong, though, since I'm just guessing at most of my conclusions. ;)
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Sherlock and SOC.

    I think SOC basically has it right.

    Mitochondria produce ATP. The most difficult exercise when there is mito dysfunction is exercise that calls upon the mitos to continue to produce ATP at a relatively high rate.

    Muscles use ATP to relax their fibers to get ready for the next contraction. It's sort of like cocking a mousetrap. The energy is invested in the cocking action, and then it is released when the muscle contracts. So exercise that calls upon the muscles to repeatedly relax and contract, as in jogging, uses up ATP at the highest rate, and is the most difficult when there is mito dysfunction.

    Sprinting can take advantage of energy that has been stored up as creatine phosphate and glycogen.
    Weightlifting involved contracting a lot of muscle fibers, but it isn't repeated over and over, so the total rate of demand for ATP is less than in jogging.

    Walking uses ATP at a steady rate, but the rate is not as high as in jogging, so dysfunctional mitochondria may be able to supply it at the lower rate needed in walking. Of course, if the mitos are extremely dysfunctional, even walking will be precluded.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    alice likes this.
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi sherlock,

    We appear to have the same capabilities. I discovered in pt last year that my aerobic capabilities
    are higher if I'm laying down flat on my back. They had a machine where you could similate running
    while laying on your back and I was fine with it. It actually felt great to run again. It was actually
    a leg strenthening machine but the weights were on pulleys so I could run if I timed it right.

    So, evidently my oi interfers with my aerobic activities.
    My oi consists of pots, petite mals and sob.

    I'm thinking there may be brain damage / impairment involved here. When I had ataxia, dx via rhomberg, I couldn't walk fast because my legs would forget how to walk and become too heavy for me to lift. Falling into
    things didn't help either.


    Now unless I have pem I can walk fast. My ability to think is significantly impaired with pem and I'm very clumsy. Brain function .. Only remedy I've found so far is rest but I'm still looking.

    My muscles feel weak with pem too but I noticed in pt that even with pem I could actually lift the same amount. I just couldn't do as many reps. So my muscles retain their strength. I gain muscle mass just like a normal
    person would.

    Because of my gluten ataxia, myoclonus and chronic petite mals,
    I'm leaning towards brain damage / impairment in my case but I have no idea if that's what other pwcs are experiencing. I've noticed some immediate improvement with adb12 and eating or drinking something
    sweet before and during exertion. Oj works the best. I have hyperinsulinemia dx via gtt + insulin.
    Mitos need sugar ...

    I suspect if I could stop the oi, my aerobic threshhold would improve. I'm hoping the mast cell
    protocal helps my vasodialation from allergies. I'm in the trial phase but so far so good.

    Tc .. X
  7. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    I thought Rich did a good post on this.. it fits what Ive read on energy and mitochrondia in the past (years ago I think it was the Readers Digest.. have a very good 3-5 page article on how this energy system works.. I wish I could of kept it, I read it in doctors clinic while waiting for an appointment).

    My issue I have with exercise fit in precisely with the mito energy article I read. This energy recycles some and can only replenish itself at a certain rate but if you have mito issues you wont be repleshing it at the normal rate.

    My mito can replenish my ATP (mito energy) fast enough to walk, so I can have no energy issues as far as mito goes when doing a normal walk (as long as its not too fast) but I can only jog for 45-55 seconds before I hit a brick wall with energy burn out and at that point will get pain and like my legs have gone to being dead weights and they get very very hard to keep moving till I cant move them if I keep trying to continue. Going to a slow walk solves this issue for me.

    I'd find it hard to think that mito issues come in with aerobic exercise as any movement at all is using mito energy. I have a huge energy issue with quick repetitive moments even if its using just one single body part.. will cause like mito issue for me in just the part of the body suffering the mito energy burn out. eg If I scrub something in a basin my hands with scrubbing can only last the same about of time as my legs can with jogging eg 45-55 seconds. (or is scrubbing with hands something in a basin for less then a minute counted as aerobic exercise?)

    my views on this is those with mito issues will probably just find themselves hitting a sudden brick wall when one is using up energy faster then one can produce it. There's no way for the body to like play catch up enough (even with the secondary energy system we have ) if one is using energy at a faster rate then the body can produce.. unless one then slows ones body down.

    Hence I used to be able to exercise for 2 hrs easily with doing jog for the 45 seconds.. (as long as I didnt get warm at all as then POTS kicks my arse, standing kicks my arse too but thats not due to my ATP as such).. then walk for 1min (in my case my mito can pick up while Im doing an easy walk... enough for me then to be able to do more jogging for 45 secs..and so on repeating that cycle.. I used to be able to do tha cyclet for 2 hrs straight (so I was fit but I still couldnt jog for even 1min!!). I found even after exercising in that way for 6 or so weeks.. I didnt build up ability to be able to sprint longer.. cause my mito just cant do it. It isnt a matter of fitness but a matter of what my mito can handle.

    I think my case certainly shows I have aquired mito disorder.

    ps If I lifted a heavy weight.. I couldnt keep holding the weight... a constant use of energy in that way would burn my muscle out (and the cellular/mito energy in that area) maybe even faster then if I was moving one. When lifting and holding a weight, it is a constant muscle contraction and it is with the contracting of muscles that the ATP is used the fastest. So in this case my capability may be under my normal 45-55 second burn out and needing repleshment time.

    So a substained weight lift would be as hard or possibly even harder for me as a jog, cuase in a jog different muscles are being used depending on exactly where the legs/ feet are in the jog... each part gives a brief moment of rest as legs fall and raise..allowing mito brief movements to try to catch up which one wouldnt have if constantly holding a heavy weight. (I havent tested my muscle hold out time if its in a constant muscle contraction state).

    My aquired mito issues and POTS are at times worst then the rest of my ME. Hence my ability in the past to be able to exercise for 2 hrs per day. in the strange walk/run way I used to have to do it. (sucked as my fitness level couldnt be increased with the mito how they are).
  8. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    im summarise by quickly answering your questions.
    Weight lifting i think would be fine for most as long as the weights arent held long at all, if substained hold, I'd think it would be a big issue as mito would burn out fast eg holding a heavy weight up for a minute could be a huge issue for someone with mito issue.

    Jogging and sprinting may not be all that much different, maybe only a bit (to me they are the same..as jogging burns my mito out very fast.. same time as sprint.. in my case its more about the time the muscle is being really worked out.. of cause if someone wasnt fit their fitness would make the sprint appear to be harder then a jog due to getting out of breath. Jogging burns out my mito within 45-55 seconds.. so I dont get to even get into that puffed out state (they basically sceam at me "we need more energy") before the muscle pain/mito burn out hits.
  9. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Thanks for all the great replies. What really seems to nail it is Tania's comment about the leader legs aka 'hitting the wall'. That never happens to me. I know the feeling very well because I experienced it long ago, long before getting sick, the first time that I went 20 miles on a bicycle. That's when all glucose/glycogen is used up and you're running only on fat as fuel. I've never experienced that since, not even after getting sick.

    So if the above analysis is correct, in that mito dysfunction involves that leaden feeling, then I must conclude that I don't have mito dysfunction. It's just low O2 handling, at least for me. I can get the burn, from lactic acid buildup. But not the leaden feeling.

    That being said, nothing is ever simple. As I write this, I wonder how much of Tania's experience is due to lack of ATP and how much is due to buildup of metabolites, which can also shut down muscle contraction. What stands out is Tania's statement that she gets burned out after 45-55 seconds regardless of running fast or slow. If it was a matter of only ATP depletion, then running faster depletes energy faster. (The reason that 100 meters is chosen in the Olympics is that

    The other thing for me to note is that I haven't been poisoned* for months and so I'll have think back about how I was operating muscle-wise when I was poisoned.

    *candida related
  10. Mattman1

    Mattman1

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    I never knew the first thing about Mito and ATP before I hit these forums- completely unaware. Not a single specialist mentioned it either, but I'm surprised now, given how crucial it sounds.

    I don't have any labs of my own to go on regarding topic, but my condition started with a sudden onset of sob-- not like, 'oh, muscle starting to feel burn in legs' or fatigue, just bam, after two hours of semi-brisk walking, it hit me, that sense of breathlessness. Not chest pain, just a few minutes of feeling a lack of air. Now, two months later...that's when the sluggish fatigue set in, not pain at all, just tiredness after moderate exertion. I'm wondering now just how intertwined Mito is with all of this. Like others have said, short period mild/moderate weight reps don't seem to effect me as badly. But once you stand up, and get those legs movin'...

    "Game over man!"
  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    maybe a mild case of exercise induced asthma? that'd tend to be true more on cold days, AFAAIK
  12. Mattman1

    Mattman1

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    I hoped that as being the case as well..and then the palpitations started, muscle tremors, insomnia. Now the threads here have given me cause to look into getting some of these levels checked.
  13. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Hey, welcome to the club :) (that nobody wants to be a member of)

    Palpitations? Magnesium is something to be mindful of keeping high enough. Also, since this whole thing has the virus angle: possible viral myocarditis. I had a period a few months after getting sick of missing a beat every 5 seconds, for many days. It was not premature beats (PVCs or PACs) but actual missed beats. Did you have an EKG or other heart test?
  14. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Are you and tania talking about exercising while upright ?

    If you have oi, then your brain is
    being deprived of nutrients when you're upright. dr peckerman has info on hypoperfusion and cfs.
    Not only is your upper body deprived of nutrients, the blood isn't circulating to remove toxins.

    I handle my glucose problems by eating or drinking something sweet every 30 minutes or so.

    I've been eating a super healthy diet for 5 years now and taking mnerals so I "think" my nutrient
    levels are good. I only get achy muscles from exercising for about 24 hours now. And then it's very
    mild. No pain. Just tightness. I've been like this for 2 - 3 years now .

    Tc .. X
  15. Mattman1

    Mattman1

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    Sure-- had echo, holter, EKG and routine blood work for cardiac enzymes. Nothing found, yet at least. Also, they are always worse after a night without much sleep, and also with exertion. Magnesium never did the trick for me like I know it has others-- it really clears it up for some people. It's an odd club for us...we think it's nothing, or something simple, until the symptoms start building. And at that point, no one seems to be able to find the cause, so they just treat the symptoms. I'm gonna keep reading up on the mito side of things; makes sense given all that must be ruled out to diagnose us.
  16. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    I was thinking the same thing. My daughter has exercise-induced asthma and it looks just like that.
  17. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    how does one know if mito is not working properly, what test do I ask for?
  18. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Organic acids profile shows problems with Kreb's cycle and such. I think for some mitochondrial problems there are tissue/biopsy type tests that can show it, but probably not for us yet.
  19. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Interesting discussion.

    So we may be able to improve our overall health with 'strength' focused weight lifting while lying down on back. That means very short reps with high weight to keep it away from 'metabolic' pathways and focused on the strength and muscle fibre aspect.

    The question is whether that could strain myelin resources which may already be very limited.

    Perhaps the best use of this would be to:
    1) Fix methylation via SMP or Yasko
    2) Use strength training protocols lying down for first stage myelin support (stimulation)

    This way it helps with recovery once the foundational biochemicals are available again.

    These are all just based on very limited knowledge - will have to look more into Mitochondria and ATP and Myelin issues to know - at the moment I don't feel comfortable going back to exercise.
  20. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    I am sorry I haven´t read all the inputs, but I just want to share what Rich recommended me when I had very weak muscles. He recommended adding these supplements , or specific forms of those I already had (supposing that it whas the mito´s that didn´t work due to a methylation blockage)
    - Adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide)
    - Magnesium ( citrate)
    - Q10
    - L-carnitine (-fumarate)

    Maybe this could help someone more than me. It worked for me.
    merylg likes this.

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