Mikowitz accused of manipulating XMRV paper

I agree with this point floyd.

In fact this is why the xmrv research from mikovits was so exciting, because it integrated several diverse observations.

The unexplained rise in certain cancers in recent decades COULD be caused by a retrovirus, especially if that retrovirus looks capable of provoking the cancers in question.

This argument appears to have nothing to do with ME. That is why it is so interesting. It makes you look at the world in a new way and ask new questions. It draws together diseases that on the surface, appear to have no connection. it crosses boundaries and categories.

This is the mark of a good researcher and a real thinker.

Incidentally, these exact types of diverse, integrative observations and discoveries have been branded as de facto quackery by the pseudoskeptic community simply by virtue of their explaining "too much."

I'm not going to go wading through intellectual sludge to track down quotes, but I definitely recall ERV and her Remoras claiming essentially that because Judy was drawing connections between numerous diseases that Judy was ipso facto a quack.

Thus, they have essentially attempted to redefine the acceptable parameters of "good science" to categorically exclude anything revolutionary or sufficiently powerful to challenge status quo orthodoxy. The "good science" they so rabidly push for is that which is definitionally neutered to the point of having little chance of upsetting any vested interests of orthodox, "consensus" viewpoints.

can anyone explain why the de freitas, sorry, I mean the mikovits story, why has it not been picked up by the 'wessely media' (aka, the guardian, times, bbc, mail etc etc) and why is it the case that this has not been rammed down our collective throats?

Well, I suppose that's the one benefit of them not taking a blind bit of notice of the XMRV story.

....... but they did take notice of the xmrv story, even more so when the negative studies were published - with wesselys death threat stories so recently spread far and wide, this 'should' have been the cherry on top for the psychs - why are they silent?

Lets wait and see

If the silence holds in the likely event of a full Lombardi et al XMRV article retraction by Science. Adding a gloat at this time when the XMRV/HGRV theory is imploding from within is probably not strategic. The best strategy would be to hold fire and then just slam patients by publishing a really outrageous new study in the BMJ:
"Evidence of Homicidal Depravity and Terrorist Personality Tendencies in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients" or some such piece of work.

Because the only reason they Wessely group is able to stay in business is by pretending there is no physical aspect of ME/CFS. So far all of the articles dealing with Mikovits' and XMRV's problems have done so in the context of it being an unquestionably physical illness. And as those media outlets have taken a strong pro-Wessely stance thus far, they probably don't want to reprint any articles that contradict that stance, even if the contradiction is implicit instead of explicit.

The way the media has been speaking about ME/CFS the past week or two is a good sign that the quacks are losing their fight to make ME/CFS be seen as a somatizing and deconditioning illness. The quacks are probably even more upset about the news than we are, solely due to the seriousness and reality of ME/CFS never being questioned in these articles.

That's an interesting thought... I hadn't thought of that... You're right... In the heat of the controversy, I hadn't noticed that everyone has been talking about ME as if a viral cause is conceivable... That's a helpful turn of events... I think that things have actually been changing quite significantly, for the better, over the past couple of years.

I can sooo see it happening!

The real beauty of the internet is that it enables us to share information without corporate manipulation of the evidence, sources or opinion.

This is the real importance of the patient forums.

The idea that a single retrovirus causes such a wide range of symptoms, in the umbrella we call CFS is simply ridiculous. Most of the main causes of CFS are known, and have been known for 100 years. There is no money to be made curing people of chronic conditions. If big pharma can't find a way to hide the symptoms with drugs, then you shall have no cure. It's as simple as that. For example, dentists have been poisoning themselves, and patients with mercury for 200 years now. They aren't going to stop any time soon. Because of that you have all these ******* running around asking for money for drug research, to 'cure' all these hundreds of conditions mercury poisoning causes. Truly sad.

erm...mercury poisoning causes "hundreds" of conditions but the idea of a single retrovirus causing all the symptoms of ME is rediculous?

you are aware the theory isnt that a single retorvirus directly causes ME?

if a virus caused ME, it would be spread like any other infectious disease. This has never happened.

Thats a very definate statement, have you found a way to prove a negative then?

I'm not a scientist but it seems still tempting to believe in a single retrovirus setting all the symptoms in motion (doesn't HIV give a range of symptoms) and one also wonders what overwhelms the immune system in the first place to allow latent infections etc to express themselves later. My early days produced nothing except "high spots" on a brain MRI scan whilst I was in a totally collapsed state with apparently no illness !

HIV was announced as the cause of AIDs even before it was scientifically validated. The rest was history. XMRV nearly went the same route. People ordering tests left right and centre for this retrovirus. And god, all the people that put themselves on the failed chemo drug AZT. The same AZT that leads to organ failure and death, in attempt to destroy a virus that was never there in the first place.

Not at all ridiculous. ME/CFS has similarities to AIDS because AIDS has a multitude of symptoms, and is associated with a number of other pathogens which are not normally associated with disease. Just like CFS, AIDS is also named as a 'syndrome' for the exact reason that there are so many different symptoms in different individuals: "Acquired immune deficiency syndrome."

Viruses do not behave in the same way as each other, so you cannot talk about "any other infectious disease" as if they all behave in the same way.
For example, the flu viruses spread in entirely different patterns to Hepatitis C.

Check out the history of Polio. What do you propose then?

What are these "causes" you claim have been known for 100 years?

I don't know, maybe the 20 year research programme done into root canals that shows they cause pretty much every degenerative disease in the body you can imagine. The reason being is because gangrene lives in the dentine tubules. Or maybe the MELISA foundation which tests for metal allergy. They have studies a showing/proving many CFS patients get better after removing a metal which they are allergic to. Most of the time its in the mouth, but not necessarily. Then there's the whole breast implant thing. Officially they are safe for all, but if you read the literature a certain percentage will get CFS, some even die. Pretty sad. None of these are helped by drugs.

I didn't have a single filing when I came down with ME (acute viral onset as part of an epidemic). No breast implants, no root canals.

Been tested for mercury and no problems found.

Known plenty of PWCFS who have had mercury filing out but no one even remotely cured.

Your theory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.