Phoenix Rising tells QMUL: release the PACE trial data
Mark Berry, Acting CEO of Phoenix Rising, presents the Board of Directors’ open letter to Queen Mary University of London (QMUL) urging them to release the PACE trial data, and hopes that other non-UK organisations will join British charities in the same request...
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Microglia LPS inflammatory cytokines and Pycnogenol

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Ive known for a while that taking large amount of Pycnogenol greatly improves how I feel.

    I'm not sure of the mechanism as it apparently does so many things but the effect begins within hours and is cumulative.

    Id say it is to do with inflammation. Not sure if its a good idea to take such large amounts longterm. But I feel much better right now.
    Rec dose is 1-2 tab daily. Today ive taken about 40 and about 20 yesterday.
    Maybe not a good idea but worth a trial.
    Anyone else tried it?

    This link is interesting

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4569068/
     
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  2. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    That's nice, and it's a french pine extract, I should give it a try!:)

    Maybe @Hip will want to add it to his list of microglial inhibitors:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-treatment-using-microglial-inhibitors.34164/
     
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  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I experimented with this in the early days when it first became available in Australia. I was using the grape extract version imported from France. I took four tabs the first time. Nothing for a minute or five. Wait, was my stomach fizzing? Then moving out till via the circulation to everywhere. The fizzing became very very intense. It was like someone had replaced all my blood with soda. Then the fizzing faded, after about half an hour, and I felt very very good.

    Sadly this was the only time this worked for me.

    Too many antioxidants might not be a good idea as they can disrupt metabolism. I wonder if periods on pycnogenol and off pycnogenol might be better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017 at 10:16 PM
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  4. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Balancing antioxidants is best. Too much of any one can lead to problems.

    "The Antioxidant Miracle" by Lester Packer, who ran the world's foremost antioxidant lab at UC Berkeley for many years explains the general principles of the antioxidant network.
     
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I have read this book and what it says about how the five core antioxidants work is probably right, though I did not investigate much. Further its an issue that many metabolic processes require free radicals. If they are quashed too fast it can be a problem. However the use of pycnogenol may be for more than just antioxidant status, and different antioxidants have different optimal targets. Plant antioxidants may work really well in some cases, whereas normal human antioxidants may not. We still do not know enough.

    The usual dosage of Resveratrol which I use a lot is about 300mg per day. I take 600 mg, but no more than twice a week, and not even that these days. The issue here is that the response can be different at different doses, presumably because it triggers state changes in the body. Indeed the reason I tried pycnogenol at a higher dose was that its impact on nitrosative stress is variable at different doses, at least according to some paper I read way back then (this was a decade or two back, and I do not recall details).

    My point is that sometimes there is a threshold effect, though it may vary person to person, and over time. A brief antioxidant burst might well trigger physiological change. What we do not know is if that can be permanent, or sustained with repeated use. Nor do we know if prolonged use of antioxidants like this might be dangerous, or in what way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  6. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    Antioxidants seem to have the opposite effect for me: they make me feel worse. Peroxynitrite scavengers do the same. However it may be that the antioxidants I've tried also have peroxynitrite scavenging effects too. I haven't done an exhaustive search for an antioxidant that doesn't noticeably reduce peroxynitrite levels, so I can't test that yet.
     
  7. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Curcumin is a very powerful anti-inflammatory and can be safely taken in very large doses, like 2-3 grams a day or more.

    I started taking it several days ago and have noticed more clarity of mind, better energy, a lessening of allergy symptoms and it just feels like I have less inflammation throughout my body. I also feel calmer it seems.

    I also added in omega 3's (dha/epa) and ginger in the last couple of days. They are both anti-inflammatory as well.

    Jim
     
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I feel that plant antioxidants tend to be too adstringent and deplete fat-soluble vitamins.

    I also feel that omega 3 can be overdone and then the adrenals will need omega 6.
     
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  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    I've taken up to 6g of curcumin orally as well as 50-100g in IV form to reduce brain inflammation from IVIG treatment. It's been very helpful.
    Boswellia is good, too.
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    How do you evaluate the blood thinning effect on fatigue? Anything that requeires more blood thinning action from my liver causes me increased fatigue.
    I never tolerated Resveratrol, I think because I am deficient in fat-soluble vitamins and it is too adstringent. I am looking for a non-adstringent blood thinner, I suppose CoQ10 would be good?
     
  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I do not take Resveratrol as a blood thinner. Its a PDE4 inhibitor. It modifies intracellular hormonal response.
     

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