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Methylfolate SIDE EFFECTS...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, May 30, 2013.

  1. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    My MCS has been almost eliminated since taking LDN for 3yrs. Also my allergies to animals and pollen. It was an unexpected side perk from LDN
     
  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Back to the original question - I would like to establish that "methylfolate" side effects are actually "methylation startup" side effects. Apparent B12 side effects would be the same as apparent methylfolate side effects. It just depends on which one you started first and which one you started second as to what you thought was giving you the side effects.

    But in reality, it's the combination of the two. For example, as a kid you may have played around with making a "volcano", which was the reaction between baking soda and vinegar. If you just have vinegar, nothing happens. If you just have baking soda, nothing happens. You put the two together, and you get the foaming/fizzing reaction.

    So you can start with some baking soda first and add vinegar second, and get the same reaction as if you started with vinegar first, then added baking soda.

    This is similar to folate and B12. If you started with B12 and tolerated it, then added methylfolate and got side effects, the side effects are not from folate. Similarly, if you started with folate and tolerated it, and added B12 and got side effects, it's not from the B12.

    It's from the combination of the two. When you combine the two, you crank up methylation to a much higher level than it was. Methylation affects over 40 reactions in the body. Making neurotransmitters and detoxifying are two examples. If all of these things are suddenly turned back on, your body has a tremendous amount of work to do with rebuilding, repairing, detoxifying, etc.There will be various nutrients that your body will need to assist with this. You may be deficient in these, or even if your levels are good, your body might require more of them for a period of time. If your body requires more for methylation, it might steal it away from another area to get it. All of these things can cause side effects.

    Next post - what to do.
     
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  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    What to do about methylation startup side effects:

    Don't try to push through.

    Stop either folate or B12 or both. If you need immediate relief take a low dose of the nicotinic form of niacin (like 50-100mg). The niacin will stop methylation. You should feel relief within 15 minutes or so. It's a good idea to have some niacin on hand before starting methylation, just in case. Wait several days or however long it takes to feel stable again.

    If you haven't already done this, research and address things that need to be done before starting folate and B12. This might be addressing glutamate, addressing First Priority mutations such as CBS, having a good layer of nutrients such as from a multivitamin, and taking electrolytes if you have weak adrenals.

    Restart folate and/or B12 at a much lower dose. 1500mcg is not a low dose. 100mcg may not even be a low dose. You may only be able to to tolerate 1mcg (or even less!)

    You can shortcut this trial and error method by learning to use self muscle testing to determine what amounts your body can tolerate at any given time. It may take several weeks before you "feel something" from doing it, so you have to be patient and not increase too fast. Again, the muscle testing can be really helpful to determine when it's time to increase, or if you need to stay the course. You can also keep tabs on when you'll need to increase potassium and/or magnesium, when some of your old supps or meds aren't needed anymore, etc.

    This is what is meant by "Start Low and Go Slow".
     
    Sherpa, fprefect, Wayne and 1 other person like this.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I just learned some new information relevant this discussion. Ben Lynch says that methylfolate (or methylation startup as postulated above) can cause a rise in nitric oxide. If you have the SOD2 mutation, you'll have trouble handling this. So you can either supplement to support SOD2, or use the Start Low and Go Slow method (or a little of both), until glutathione levels rise to compensate. Supplements for SOD2 include certain mushrooms and herbs, and GliSODin.

    Source: MTHFRsupport podcast on Blogtalk Radio. Episode: "What is MTHFR and other SNPs That Work With MTHFR?" Nutritionist Shawn Bean, about 35 minutes in. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mthfrs...-is-mthfr-and-other-snps-that-work-with-mthfr
     
    Wayne likes this.
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I tend to agree with you Caledonia that it's probably a combo of both methylfolate and b12 -- good point -- so perhaps Lynch should retitle his page -- Methylation side effects -- and if I could, I would retitle this thread the same way.

    Even though I'm sure he knows more about this than I do, I'm not a huge fan of Sean Bean...he seems to be really new to the subject and sometimes seems to be fishing for clients on the FB groups. That may be an unfair judgement however, so take it with a huge grain of salt. But I watched a video on youtube with him and 3 other 'experts', and wasn't too impressed when he didn't even pronounce methylation correctly. He called it 'methylization', repeatedly. If I find it, I'll try and post it -- not for that reason, but mainly for the others who were also interviewed. They seemed to have a lot more experience than Mr. Bean.

    Re SOD: There are sublingual products out there now, and also Catseye strongly recommended 'Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes', here on PR, and on pro health. Says they (and other supports) basically helped her from becoming permanently bedridden.
     
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Lynch just posted this on Facebook:

    "
    Recently learned that B12 (cobalamin) can be a pro-oxidant in those with lower SAMe levels. This may explain why some of you do so poorly with vitamin B12 - muscle pain, tingling, aches, fatigue. Thanks to Dr Deth for this information. Further studying this now and will write how to bypass/fix it - or podcast it."
    I used to do so well on SAM-e...I know the body should make enough by itself, but perhaps I should get some more.
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been doing the low and slow route and I've recently added methylfolate with no problem. Coincidentally, I am also taking GliSODin. GliSODin has gliadin (a gluten protein) so people avoiding gluten might want to avoid it. There are other brands that sell SOD. For some reason, SOD can be destroyed by digestion so it needs to be taken on an empty stomach. There are also brands that sell enteric coated SOD. For some reason, GliSODin can be taken with food unlike the other SOD supplements (don't ask me why).
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Good to know that GlioSODin can be taken with food. I have trouble swallowing pills and need a mouthful of food to get them down. The tiny amount of gluten in it probably wouldn't bother me.

    I saw the Extra Energy Enzymes mentioned on another thread where we were discussing SOD's impact on energy. I have SOD so this is of interest to me.

    I was trying to determine if this supp had gluten in it too. It's a proprietary enzyme formula (so you don't know exactly what's in it), but wheatgrass sprouts and other sprouts are the ones with the most enzymes, so I assume that's in it. The gluten may come from the wheatgrass if it isn't prepared the right way.

    Re: Shawn Bean. I was also initially turned off by his inability to pronounce methylation, and many of the enzyme/supplement/chemical names. But I've been listening to him on MTHFRsupport's podcast and he is more knowledgeable than you would think at first. I've concluded that he must be sort of dyslexic or something.
     
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  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I bought another SOD product from Biotec since it was $5 cheaper and had the exact same ingredients. I don't know if the tablets are the same their Extra Energy Enzymes, but the ones in mine are hard to swallow. They're somewhat long, but thin. However, they're very rough for some reason. There's some studies saying that amla increases SOD and glutathione. I'm not sure if it needs to be taken on an empty stomach or not. Vitacost is having a buy one get one half off sale on GliSODin:
    http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-glisodin-sod-catalase-the-antioxidant-catalyst
     
  10. Beatnik

    Beatnik

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    Take a b complex with metafolin and raise your dose until you feel good. Gfcf diet and cellfood same thats all. If you are cbs eat low protein diet and avoid any kind of folic acid. It's easy after some months of research. Methilfolate alone is unuseful, you need the whole b-pack mg, se, vitc, b12, p5p, nadh and minerals. B12 is better in form of ad/methyl combo. In my case bh4 is all i need, but except for the kaneka's one other including kuvan don't cross BBB, so u need to gain it indirectly or not to waste it, if u dont have enough u have mild PKU and oxidative inflamatory disease
    . To help with it melatonin and luteolin are the best to avoid microglial activation. Sulphur foods-drinks waste bh4 cause u need ammonia to detox. Sauna or cardio sport lows ammonia and also helps. It's the history of my life, i hate wine and meat ;) and love sauna and cycling...Best for all.
     
    ramkishore likes this.
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I can't have gluten...at least not now...but did notice on Vitacost that it says the Biotec product is 'free of gluten, sugar, or starch'. I'm assuming that's because it consists of the extract of the sprouts, not the sprouts or seeds themselves. ???

    Good point about Bean, Caledonia...re the dyslexia possibility. :)

    Here's the link...the gluten info is under the 'Product Details' link:

    http://www.vitacost.com/biotec-foods-extra-energy-enzymes
     
  12. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I am gluten intolerant but a digestive enzyme l have been taking (though now question it as my stools turn yellow if l miss taking them) enables me to tolerate gluten. My question is, if l take the digestive enzymes with GliSODin, will they break down the gluten before the GliSODin gets to where it is absorbed?
     
  13. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    Is the amount of b12 taken proportional to how much (over)methylation one might experience, or is it different for everyone?

    Also, it seems to take longer and longer for my body's methylation levels to come down to normal where I feel normal (no anxiety, happy etc).
     
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Increasing B12 will increase methylation just as increasing dosages of any other methyl donor will also increase methylation. For most people, methylfolate seems to play a bigger role in increasing methylation, but for you B12 seems to have a huge effect (certain people might be particularly sensitive to other methyl donors such as TMG or SAMe). I don't know how you'll respond to methylfolate, but I did hear from another person with a hypersensitivity to B12 and yet had no problem taking several hundred mcg of methylfolate.

    I'm not exactly sure what's going on in your case, but I posted some stuff from Rich on the first page of this thread about one possibility. There's a lot of information so I'll just piece together the main parts:
     
  15. Beatnik

    Beatnik

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    Mb12 limit is marked by headache and sleep problems. Once you know you have a problem u think it would be marvellous when you'd fix it. But then you realize is not a miracle, and it's common sense, off course you will feel better, but sometimes less is more.

    You have a way of life, and a sensorial diet that keeps you healthy, chemicals are a good aid, but not everything.
     
  16. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    I want to start methylation once I've got my last few amalgams out - in the meantime I've been trying to find a multi that I can tolerate -anyone had the same problem? I feel so much better when I have IV vit/min infusions, just have a problem with oral supps.
     
  17. Beatnik

    Beatnik

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    Douglas and klaire labs have the best multib with metafolin, i prefer Klaire labs vitaspectrum, the douglas one has int factor, but not adb12, try both and decide. Regards
     
  18. Beatnik

    Beatnik

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    Diet and cellfood are critical to fix you gut, w/o it anything else is unuseful. I've also tried mthfr 1298 liver support from Yasko, and it's ok, but only for short periods, not always in my combo.
     
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Just wanted to report back on here with my findings.

    For me the B12 (methylcobalamin) controls the rate of metal detox. Right now I'm around 50mcg. If I go to 100mcg, the metal detox is too intense and get flu-like muscle and joint aching and feel extra tired.

    The methylfolate controls the rate of "cell rebuilding" which depletes (in me) magnesium (and in others) potassium. If I take 83mcg, I'm ok. If I take 166mcg, it goes into overdrive. I end up with heart palps and leg twitching that messes up my sleep, despite taking huge amounts of magnesium.

    I may play around with finding a number in between those two numbers, so I'm cranked as high as possible without getting the side effects.

    I would like to add, that even though I'm at the lower number, it doesn't mean there isn't anything going on with metal detox or cell rebuilding. It's just that I can't feel it. At least for the metal detox I have proof of this on my Nutreval that detox is going on.

    This should all pay off in the long term. My stamina seems to be improving, and I've done some things in the past couple of weeks that should have caused PEM, but didn't. I'm excited.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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