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MethylFolate during the night, Safety, and Cofactors, questions basically

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Methhead81, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    In this sort of sequel to my previous thread, I am not currently taking Methylation related supplements, though I did experiment with B12 (methyl) and Folate (also Methyl) a few days ago, and had a few improvements in mental symptoms that have been bothering me for the past year. I believe I may be deficient in B12 which was induced by cutting Gluten out of my diet in late 2014, however I did a lot of things during that time so it's hard to tell.

    I stopped the supplements cold turkey, and I am going to attempt again this time with more information and cofactors.

    This goes out to @Freddd, I read your symptom list of PFD btw.

    If anyone on here is up to answering these questions, I shall lay them out.

    1. Is it necessary to keep taking Methylfolate during the night to prevent Paradoxical Folate Deficiency or does it only have to be taken during the day?

    2. If one is in the midst of a methyl trapping situation, would it be best to quickly increase the doses and monitor symptoms?

    3. If you have a B12 or Folate deficiency, which one should be supplemented first if you are more deficient in one than the other?

    4. If my symptoms stop improving or I no longer feel benefits at the dose I am at, does this mean I need to increase the dose or could it mean something else?

    5. If I need to stop methylation supplements for whatever reason, do I have to go back to them at some point or will I get Paradoxical Folate Deficiency unless I keep taking them?

    6. What is the best test to do for checking mineral levels within the body? I have done a hair test which shows mineral derangement (Mercury, had loads of exposures to it), so I am a little concerned about this. Also have to avoid copper since that was high on the hair test.

    7. How long should I start off at a low dose of say 500mcg or 1mg (I can tolerate 1mg very well) before increasing? When I no longer feel a "high" when taking that dose?

    I honestly hope someone can answer some of these questions, I already asked @stridor about quite a few, so I just need to know a little bit more before I can start to plan this out again so I can do it safely with minimal risk of potentially screwing myself up.
     
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    There's no relationship between gluten containing food and B12. You need meat, fish or eggs to obtain B12. Cheese may also contain some.

    I would not recommend taking methyl-supplements before going to bed, they are essentially stimulants and it's likely they will interfere with your sleep. Methylfolate in particular.

    Typically you need to ramp up the dose slowly. If you're not patient and double the dose every few days you will likely get lots of side effects, get scared and throw away all supplements. The mantra is "low and slow". Every time I rushed things I just got worse.

    Depends on the case.
    Did you check your levels? Do you actually know if you're deficient and how badly?

    A bit of experimentation is in order. Adding high doses of B12 and B9 will likely use up other cofactors (magnesium, potassium, zinc, B2, B3 etc...). You will need to keep an eye on those and see if by changing the dose of any these it improves the situation. Again you will need patience... and a journal where you can keep track of what's going on. (highly recommended)

    We're not mechanical robots... so it's very difficult to say :) You can read other folks' experiences but what will happen to you may be very different. That's why "low and slow" is the best way to proceed and to avoid bumps in the road.

    I have done a "minerals panel" with this lab which checks serum and cellular level of minerals. It's a bit expensive but very thorough
    http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/.
    Yes, could be a good way to proceed.

    I would recommend checking @caledonia 's guide here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/caledonias-methylation-links.1744/

    in particular her "Start Low and Go Slow" document.

    good luck

    ETA = fixed typos, oh so many typos! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
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  3. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Thanks for the link to the test Peter. What was the name of the test you did, was it elements in hair and did it have to be ordered via a physician?

    I read Caledonia's guides and another Freddd Protocol guide that was pretty useful. And I Am ordering the recommended supplements for next month when I try this again.

    I dosed B12 and Folate (800mcg) quite often in January with minimal negative side effects from taking them, save a few times where I felt pretty weird when absorbing B12. However my brain couldn't comprehend what Freddd was saying about Paradoxical Folate Deficiency and other such things back then (my brain has gotten a little sharper since a few chelation rounds), so I didn't do much with it. Now however I can comprehend what he is saying better, so I figured I should try it again for proper this time.

    I went too fast a few days ago, which I strongly regret (and still experiencing some symptoms of), but at the same time kinda glad I did since it showed me that I really might need it. Possibly I can't get healthy levels from my diet (of B12 possibly), not sure if I am one of those who gets put into methyltrapping situations if I eat too much Folate from food (I had many of the symptoms Freddd talks about, as well as low potassium symptoms). The B12 found in meats and such is relatively low if a person needs a lot of it to even be effective.

    It's possible my lack of B12 and the incredibly high amounts of Folate was responsible for my symptoms, I need to investigate this, but it seems quite likely because I get a flare up of some of those symptoms depending on what I eat. I could do an experiment but that would be super risky at this stage. Past experience has shown that if I eat foods like Broccoli and so forth, it will almost 100% likely cause "detox" symptoms later that night. Broccoli is high in folate.

    What is the more accurate kind of blood test they can do for B12 and Folate levels in the blood? I am seeing my GP on the 14th regarding this among other things. Though a blood test in November showed slightly elevated levels of MCH and MCV, which can be a sign of B12 type issues from what I heard. My GP however never thinks for himself, so he didn't point it out to me.

    I understand these things can be very unpredictable, and that everyone is different, I am simply trying to minimize the risks of bad side effects (even if I do the right things...to my knowledge that is) and the treatment not working (which I hear a lot, I assume these people don't do the right things though?) after a week or so. I am ordering Dibencozide (I am going to begin with this before adding B12 in again) and Carnitine Fumerate (have most of the other recommended cofactors) to reduce the chance of failure.

    Thank you so much for responding though, especially since I didn't get the best advice on my last thread about all this.
     
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    It is called "Elements in blood" --> http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/pages/body.php?menu=321
    I did panel n.2, if I remember correctly,

    Sure, I was just pointing out the there's no connection between a gluten-free diet and a low B12 intake.

    For B12 it's methyl-malonic acid. Serum homocyteine can be interesting too.
    For folate levels it's a bit tricky. Most labs will give you a measure of "folate" which is pretty vague and doesn't go into the details of which forms of folate they are checking.

    The "methylation panel" provided by the lab in my previous link is the only one I know that provides this sort of break down (i.e. they quantify all main forms of folate from folic acid down to 5-MTHF).

    good luck
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
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  5. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Again, thank you for being as helpful as you can.

    I don't think a test is 100% necessary, it's more important that I get prepared to go through with this with as much effort as possible, so it doesn't end up going wrong.

    A discussion with a friend of mine last night seemed to discourage me from looking into this and instead focusing on chelation, because he didn't get any benefit from doing it and it taking months for people on here apparently. I think he didn't do it for long enough or wasn't meeting his threshold to induce changes. That is why I went a bit fast a few days ago to confirm if I needed it or not, and it seems like I might really do need it.

    Still experiencing some symptoms, though it's winding down. Next time it will be low and slow (likely starting at 1mg a day, or 500mcg since I can tolerate 1mg really well).
     
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  6. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I hear B12 Oils are apparently pretty good and can be taken instead of an injection. That was one of my main concerns since over here it is kinda costly to get Methylcobalamin injections.

    Originally I Was just going to focus on chelation and hope for the best, however I was told that some needed to start their methylation processes up to fully recover. Stridor had this happen to him.

    I noticed many gains occurring in Janurary, and at this time I was taking B12 on and off and 800mcg of Folate daily. I wonder if some of my DMPS side effects were actually the Folate doing something inside my body.

    I see no reason why I can't address this now rather than later on. Methylcobalamin doesn't actually methylate mercury in the body unless you were to take massive amounts (over 7000mg apparently). So why not see if it might allow me to function normally (like 50% better than at the moment) again?
     

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