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Methylfolate co-factors?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by bigmillz, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    I've been getting methylfolate to work finally...I won't go into much detail yet because it's still in progress and it deserves a full post of its own.

    But, I've got this brain fog/clumsiness creeping up as I increase the dose. Mostly noticeable once I moved above 800mcg. I'm currently at 1600mcg.

    I've read online that some people benefited from zinc (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/zinc-switched-the-lights-back-on.35230/) and niacin (http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-taking-too-much-a-problem/2012/01/08/ - search for "silver bullet") in similar situations.

    Any other co-factors I might be running myself out of that are worth trying before I dial the methylfolate back down a bit? I feel DAMN good aside from that, so I don't really want to stop yet.
     
  2. zelda

    zelda

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    Might be anything but a few thoughts come to mind.

    How much B12 are you taking? Enough to avoid methyltrap?

    Could it be potassium deficiency? Or even magnesium?

    B2 is important in the cycle to keep things moving. B6 also.

    Are you taking a low dose B complex? If not, maybe a place to start?

    Zinc is one I think of also, other trace minerals too maybe.

    Niacin can be helpful, just make sure you aren't taking too much, it can use up methyl groups. More than 50mg a day for me puts me in PFD.
     
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  3. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to reply :)

    I'm taking 5mg mB12 and 1.5mg adB12 daily.

    I've tried adding potassium, but there's little effect.

    I currently take 400mg of magnesium citrate nightly.

    18mg of FMN (co-enzymed B2) daily. No B complex right now, as I still have trouble tolerating B1, even in ridiculously small doses.

    I'm going to give zinc and niacin a shot and report back.

    1.6mg of methylfolate might just be too much for now, I woke up pretty damn anxious.
     
  4. zelda

    zelda

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    Sounds like a reasonable place to start. Cofactors can be hard to figure out.

    If you add a little niacin, it might also help you start to step into adding some other B's.

    You might also consider more magnesium, and/or a different form. You might need more than the 400 mg now that you are upping your folate and methylation. A magnesium oil would be an easy way to test that. YMMV but I noticed an increase need for mag once I upped my folate.

    I think trace minerals could be important also. Just looking into those myself.

    Good luck :)
     
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  5. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    I think the niacinamide definitely made a difference - aside from feeling WAY overstimulated from the methylfolate, the fog lifted, and I got tons and tons of my work done today. Wow was I motivated! Especially compared to the last few days. Even waking up and riding my bike into the office, I was just dragging - that turned around within a couple of hours.

    I'm going to go ahead and leave 50mg niacinamide in the mix I think, but still lower the methylfolate a bit. I seemed to have the best results around 800-1200mcg. At 1600mcg, anxiety and that fog start creeping up. Unfortunately, the niacin didn't really fix the anxiety totally, so I think a lower dose is the best option here.
     
    zelda likes this.
  6. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    This is pertinent.

    I tend to think of the folate cycle, the methionine cycle, the glutathione cycle and transsulfuration pathways as gears that mesh and turn together, in that order.

    If you load up on folate at the beginning and get the folate cycle trying to move while your methionine cycle, etc. are still stuck, unexpected symptoms can happen.

    It's wise to methodically look at the steps in the cycle and cofactors needed for each, and add them in, working your way backwards...

    Think of a freeway traffic jam. The cars at the back can't start moving till the cars in front start moving...

    It works best for me when I load up on B12 (methyl and some adenosyl and hydroxo), add a lot of B6 (P5P), magnesium (malate and glycinate), then add B2, and then folate. And if I start to get headaches or smell like sulfur, then add B1 (benfotiamine), molybdenum, and taurine. I increase folate if I start to feel depressed. If I take SAMe, I get extremely irritable.

    I've been methyltrapped... not a good place to be. My methionine level was 0 and homocysteine was 3. Getting B12 higher, and adding methionine and trimethylglycine helped.

    Have you done a 23andme to see if you have SNPs that might impact this equation? It can be mighty helpful. So can a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval, which can help you figure out proportions.

    Finally, more is not better with folate. Too little OR too much can promote cancer. Best to find the right amount for you. Other nutrients are more forgiving, like its pretty impossible to OD on B12.
     
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  7. zelda

    zelda

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    This is great, glad to hear you discovered what seems to be a missing piece. Lowering the folate for now seems a good plan also. Just keep an eye on things and look for any imbalances or changes. Hope it all goes well and maybe you will find you can add some of the other B's in as time goes by. Those might allow you to increase folate if that is what you need to do, or allow you to do just great on the lower dose.

    Do you know your SNPs? As @Learner1 mentioned, it can be really helpful. Not the whole story for sure, but a good place to start to understand some of your possible genetic blocks and reactions. Of course, we can have functional blocks also and the functional tests can help with that if you have the funds.

    Even with the data though, all this stuff can often just be trial and error, and patience, sigh.

    Is the science really there on the folate/cancer connection? I thought all that research was done on folic acid only.
     
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  8. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    SNPs give you an idea of what the road looks like, but environmental factors, like stress, diet, toxins, etc. impact how your genes are expressed.

    It's complicated and it varies. Many cancers are hypermethylated islands in a hypomethylated body.

    "To this day, chemical variants, such as metho-
    trexate and pemetrexed, of these initial folate antagonists constitute a major class of cancer chemotherapy agents and are used as frontline chemotherapy for a diverse range of cancers, including ALL, breast cancer, bladder cancer and lymphomas. These agents inhibit dihydrofolate reductase and tetrahydrofolate
    reductase activity in humans, resulting in the disruption of one-carbon metabolism. It is interesting to note, however, that disruption of one-carbon metabolism by these agents is not efficacious in all cancer types."
    http://jlocasale.duke.edu/uploads/1/3/2/8/13288106/locasale_2013.pdf

    I've had cancer and tend to run short of folate, due to a few folate cycle SNPs, but my doctor wants me having only the folate I need without going overboard, along with all the cofactors.
     
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