Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by skwag, Feb 15, 2016.
The group buy is moving forward and is now closed to new members. PM me if you have any questions.
This has been one of the best things that has happened to me in terms of methylation. Honestly I think this will be the new standard eventually, I just don't think people have breached into these areas yet. I encourage people to consider it on their own even if they're not part of ours. I no longer sit with ridiculous tabs in my mouth for 16 hours a day and am getting exponentially more mecbl into my system at a fraction of the cost. We're having good experiences with bulk folate from China as well, which I also think people need massively higher amounts of. In my opinion a legit nasal spray session or a good vial of mecbl to test in titrating doses is an absolute necessity if you benefit from mild - moderate doses of either. I couldn't recall or even fathom from my levels of fog that I could get as close as I've come to how I was before all of this and in that state I had to just go on faith that it would continue to improve, as Freddd and many others have with a serious no nonsense protocol. I do have other issues though, methylation isn't everything (EBV and possibly other viruses, LDN is helping a lot).
We'll be doing these every so often and if you didn't happen to make this one feel free to PM me about any questions in getting it going on your own.
At $944 for 100g it works out to $9.44 for an entire GRAM of mecbl.
I'm at 30 mg / day and at this price it is $0.28 / day. There is no other option at the moment for me if I want to take this seriously.
I've moved to MeCbl (methylcobalamin) nasal spray as my primary way to get MeCbl into my system. I now make my own nasal spray, using saline of my choice and the MeCbl from the last purchase that @skwag and @AlmostEasy are discussing. I'm pleased with the results.
I understand you being nervous, for sure. I was, too. Now I'm pretty happy I took the risk.
Bottom line: I'll be in on this next group buy.
@aturtles, what dosage are you able to use with your nasal spray? How often/day do you "snort" to get your daily dose? Do you end up with a bright red nose??
I'm very interested in this but unsure of delivery methods.
Also, what about adenosylB12? Greg from B12oils.com feels pretty strongly most people should have a mix of methyl and adenosyl, roughly 1:3.
I'm taking about 1.5mg/day mB12 and 4.5mg/day adenosylB12 (injected equivalent) with the oils. I would like to experiment with higher doses but it's already running me about $2/day.
@garyfritz , a bright red nose is an indicator that the spray delivery system and/or the user aren't quite up to snuff. (Heh.) You apply the nasal correctly, no red shows, but the doing-it-right is something I've had to practice. I think I finally have it. More on that another time.
I snort 3-4 times a day. Each application of the sprayer is -- I'm guessing, because I don't have an accurate way to measure the output of my particular sprayer, and they all vary -- .1-.2ml. My MeCbl mixture is 15mg-20mg/ml, so each spray is 1.5-4mg per nostril. I do each one twice (or more) each time, for a total of somewhere in the 10-20mg range per *round*. So that's 40-80mg/day.
I like nasal because it works for me, and it doesn't have the same standards of sterility that injectable requires. Sensible cleanliness, but nothing extraordiniary.
I like nasal because it works so much better than tabs ever did.
Regarding adenosylB12/AdoCbl/adenosyl, I follow Freddd's guidelines on this, and do a high-dose multi-tab oral mucosa absorption once a week. Seems to work for me.
For those interested in nasal sprays, I have used these sprayers and found them to work well. They spray approximately .1 ml according to the description.
I can't agree in ANY way with the 1:3 MeCbl:AdoCbl at the same time.
First, the reasoning for it is bogus. The vast majority of the muscle and organ B12 is AdoCbl. That is parked in mitochondria for the life of the mitochondria and then the AdoCbl is released and reused as long as it isn't damaged by glutathione, nitrous oxide, cyanide (cigarettes for instance) and a variety of toxins, as far as I can conjecture off the research, of which there isn't any to speak of dealing with diffusion distribution. That mode is not recognized in the research and physician universe In my OWN experience it took 6 weeks of glutathione precursors while taking AdoCbl every day which had no effect, or 4-6 weeks of no AdoCbl to become low enough on AdoCbl to notice the difference of a 50mg sublingual dose (and that is the tested CNS threshold for AdoCbl. by my trials, on one day only with a 50mg sublingual dose over 5 or so hours. There is also every indication that based on my experience of starting MeCbl and then 9 months later AdoCbl is that MeCbl supplied about half of the AdoCbl I needed. To supply none at all is one of the Cobalamin lettered diseases. I have CblC disease, adult onset. There is also CblA, CblB, and I don't know how many others. However, daily circulation amounts of AdoCbl with all doses is a problem. Each cell that uptakes an AdoCbl molecule from diffusion distribution which needed MeCbl has a methylation fail with folate deficiency characteristics caused by individual cell methyltrap. I have run series of these trials. AdoCbl can cause cell level methyltrap just as zero star MeCbl, CyCbl and HyCbl can. In the brain it increases "irritability", can cause depression and other mood and character changes in relationship to relative MeCbl level.
My daughter needed daily AdoCbl, but only one dose with multiple separate doses of MeCbl so that the circulating form was mostly MeCbl except for a few hours each day. With the trials I'm familiar with, her pattern is more rare than mine.
So if a person is having ANY mysterious folate deficiency symptoms, mostly noticeable in the epithelial and neurological tissues, and the others I have no idea about as those require much longer tests to see the changes, and is doing everything else right, AdoCbl all day every day would be a favorite for changing on a trial basis. It nreeds to be done to see what else is missing, like trace minerals. I trialed continuous ratios all day, 1:3, 1:2, 1:1, 2:1, 3:1 and once a week to once a month at doses from 10 to 50mg (AdoCbl mass, not adjusted for CyCbl mass).
Thanks @aturtles, that sounds easy enough. I'll jump onto your group buy.
@Freddd, I know you're not a fan of constant AdoB12. I haven't tested it enough to be certain, but I can say with certainty that methyl-only oil didn't work well for me, and Ado/Methyl mixture (3:1) has worked well for over a year. (Though it may be losing some effectiveness in the last few months.) I have some methyl-only oil and I plan to test your "AdoB12 once a week" sometime soon, probably using 10mg Source Naturals Dibencozide = 8.6mg AdoB12. I don't know how much I should use once a week but I doubt I'd need 50mg like you use.
To figure 50mg sublingual I assumed 15%-20% absorption to duplicate 7.5 mg to 10 mg injection. I did a lot of reps on the sublingual trials for CNS penetration. With injection the typical threshold event in the CNS was > 6mg and <= 7.5mg. This was duplicated by dozens of people doing injection trials It took most 1 to 4 x 7.5mg (or 3x10mg or 2x15mg for some) to maintain CNS benefits 24/7. The urine colorimetry in the 30 to 50mg sublingual matched the 7.5 to 10mg doses with urine colorimetry as did the CNS effects. The range established for the sublingual tablets trialed was 45-120 minutes resulting in 15-25% absorption (10-33% full range). Only the sublingual AdoCbl was used for the bulk of people. Only 2 of us had any access to AdoCbl for injection. The same range, 30-50mg worked with the same urine colorimetry. What if anything this all means to you is subject to trials.
Personally I think it is kind of silly to convert molecular mass to CyCbl molecule counts as AdoCbl is what, maybe 100 to 10,000 times more effective than CyCbl is at being effective as AdoCbl. Good luck. I've seen the whole range of response except for a person who found 3x as much AdoCbl with all doses to be most effective. It might cut MeCbl effectiveness so much that methylation falls off and doesn't need as much folate and/or potassium. Watch for changes in those as well. Many things about how the symptoms change is paradoxical looking and "counter intuitive" many would say.
I realized there was another variable besides Methyl vs. Ado/Methyl: dosage. I was using 3x/day. The Ado/Methyl has the injected equivalent of 0.5mg methyl & 1.5mg ado, so I was getting 1.5mg + 4.5mg = 6.0mg total, per day. The methyl-only oil has the equivalent of 0.6mg, so 1.8mg total per day. Maybe that just wasn't enough, in the absence of the adenosyl. I don't know how "interchangeable" methyl and adenosyl are, but I wonder if "lots of methyl" (with weekly/whatever adenosyl) might have worked as well as the daily 6mg dose of methyl/adenosyl?
I will find out when the group buy comes through!
Thanks @Freddd, I'll keep that in mind when I start boosting my methyl. So even if the sublingual is on your mucosa for an hour or more (e.g. between lip and gum) you still saw only 15-20% absorption?
Sure would be nice if there was a more effective delivery mechanism. B12oils.com has an adenosyl-only oil, with presumably the same high 80% absorption rate that they've seen for the methyl. I don't know the dosage in a squirt, but if it's 1.5mg like the ado/me oil, it would take 5-7 squirts to get the 7.5-10mg injected equivalent you're looking for. Effective but pricey.
@skwag, your Chinese supplier doesn't sell pure adenosyl crystals, do they? I can't find any on alibaba. It would be nice to be able to mix up some adenosyl spray.
I did a small amount of work with liquid AdoCbl. In countries where it is a product, it comes as crystals in a vial with a seperate vial of sterile saline, and mixed at time of use. The instructions were to discard after 5 days. I found it starting to break down norticably after the 3rd day even protected from light. It is far more fragile than MeCbl. I found the same CNS threshold, 7.5mg, as MeCbl. I found that a 50-50 mix also had the same CNS threshold, 7.5mg. At the CNS threshold effect, CNS remyelination starts up strongly, with a 5 star MeCbl. It doesn't do it right below it, ie 6mg absorbed, and injecting 100mg doesn't do any more. There is no proportionality that I have ever seen. The key was to keep 1.25mg per hour getting absorbed into the serum maintaining an approximate level of perhaps 200,000 pg/ml 24/7 which made for a steep diffusion gradiant that made it through the BBB and kept the remyelination going around the clock. Stop and start every day did no good. So the effective doses for most people were 4x7.5, 3x10mg and for some, 2x15mg.
Thanks to everyone who has joined the group buy. We have filled out all the slots, so will not be adding any more members.
If you haven't joined but wanted to, you can PM me and if someone drops out we'll be able to add you. I can also help if you want to make a separate purchase from the same vendor or have any other related questions.
Would be great if folks can report here their experience using this (or link to a thread for that purpose) so we can all learn how it goes?
Wait, was that last part still talking about AdoCbl? That seems to contradict your "once a week works well for AdoCbl" statements?? It sounds like you switched to describing your protocol for MeCbl saturation.
I echo with @Freddd , last 2 months i was doing Adb12 10Mg ( Source Natural) per day and 20 Mg MB12 ( enz+CL) per day , i ran into severe depression , blankness , spacey , unable to read and memorize totally disturbed.
but then i reduced to to 2.5Mg Adb12, and feeling much better.
bottom line too much Adb12 is not good.
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